Standalone 210 Preference - Vertical/Horizontal

[ErnieD]

I usually use 2 GB Neox 212T's both laying horizontally, if you dont know, these cabs have vertical drivers in em. This puts the amp head at a good height for me to read and seems to offer more lows, I know that's prolly my perception. I have tried stacking these 2 cabs vertically in a smaller room and was def louder to me, just kinda too much in my ear, could not get used to it that nite, so they usually end up horizontal as I always use 2 cabs w/B1500. I recently bought a used Eden D210T from a TBer. He installed Eminence Deltalite II's, so its now a 4 ohm 500 watt cab, have not gigged it yet.

I've been rehearsing at home with the 212T on bottom, vertical, and the Eden on top, horizontal. sounds nice, but its rather low volume. Now the Eden cab is abit wider and deeper than the GB cab so it looks kinda wierd atop the narrower cab. Just for something different and to try the Eden at gig volume, I plan to use the Eden/GB cab at a gig this coming Friday, pretty big room, concrete floor, tall ceiling.

For best results should I try stacking both cabs vertical, leave em the same as at home, the 212 vert-the 210 horz and I even thought of placing the 210 cab on bottom, horz and placing the narrower 212T cab on top. I suppose the 210 should be on top, though the Eden has very impressive lows.

Anyway, I like the way the Eden cab sounds so I just thought I'd take it to a gig to see how it sounds with my GB 212T above or below it, vert or horizontal. If its gonna cause me any issues I will just take my 2nd 212T as usual. Sorry just recalled the subject was for a single cab. Offer any advice if you can for 2 cabs, vertical/horizontal. Thanks.

 

[Fajah]

Anyway - put the 2x10 on it's end and get as far away from it as you can is my advice...

What happens if you can't get far away? We're basically a bar band that tends to get shoved into small spaces, so not exactly ideal. When I first bought my cabs, I gigged with just my 112 and it was fine as far as volume was concerned. Our guitar players love it, and I had no problem hearing myself. Then I picked up a 210 and stacked it vertically on top of the 112. I didn't need the two cabs from a volume perspective, but I happen to love the tone when the cabs are together.

On the first gig that I played through both cabs, my guitar players commented during a break that they loved the tone, but I was really "filling the room", especially the immediate area where we play. So for the second half of the gig, I unplugged the 210 and just played through the 112. It was better for them but I couldn't understand why this was happening given that my volume level was same. I think Greenboy's illustration on how the sound was is being dispersed from the 210 sheds some light on this.

I was considering using my 210 on it's own at our upcoming gig rather than the 112, just to see how it would perform. Based on the discussion thus far, it would seem that the 210 needs to be horizontal for I need the sound to be focused outward at this venue. Ideally, I would still like to play though both cabs for tone, but it seems they'll have to be stacked differently. Now I need to experiment with putting the 112 on the bottom and the 210 horizontally on top, or vice versa. It may not look that great, but that's secondary at the moment.

 

[Fajah]

My regular setup for a gig. Like the look and tone but have the dispersion issue:

Don't like the look and not crazy about the sound:

Look's not bad and I like the sound. I think I'm going to try this at our next gig later this month:

 

[alexclaber]

The first of the three stack arrangements will exhibit the best off-axis response whilst also looking the best. The narrower the source in a given axis, the wider the dispersion in that axis.

Alex

 

[JimmyM]

I believe the same issues apply with a single 210 as a stack. Vertical will give you, I guess, slightly more even dispersion across the stage and room (I've never really noticed this 'comb filtering effect' with the bass guitar, but many talk about it like it's a night and day issue:smug

Sorry Ken, but to me it is. It's more of an issue for the PA than the amp, but it's a very noticeable thing for me since I get a much more even and full-range sound across the stage, even using two 115"s like I do now. I have to use a 410 on some gigs where I'm renting, and now I can't stand them unless I'm directly in front of it and tilt it back. Anywhere else on the stage and I just get annoyed. Is it because of better mid dispersion instead of comb filtering? Probably. But it's still a very real thing to me and makes all the difference in the world whether or not I'm happy with my sound.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

My regular setup for a gig. Like the look and tone but have the dispersion issue:

The tweeter locations are totally screwed with that set-up, as every position places them a few wavelengths apart. I'd be turning the tweeter off in whichever cab is on the bottom.

 

[DaveKirkpatrick]

I don't have a 2x10 cab, but I have two 2x8 cabs. When I use 1 cab I have always oriented it vertically. For two cabs it depends on the room/stage. Sometimes it seems I can get extra bass by laying the cabs on their sides.But in a more bass-y room or poorly designed resonant stage the vertical stacking works better. So for me...it depends

 

[SteveD]

The tweeter locations are totally screwed with that set-up, as every position places them a few wavelengths apart. I'd be turning the tweeter off in whichever cab is on the bottom.

This is very interesting, thanks for the discussion. I use an Aguilar GS112 and stack an Avatar BR210 Neo on top vertically. Would a second 210 be better than the Ag? How do I tell about tweeter placement issues?

Thanks!

 

[JimmyM]

This is very interesting, thanks for the discussion. I use an Aguilar GS112 and stack an Avatar BR210 Neo on top vertically. Would a second 210 be better than the Ag? How do I tell about tweeter placement issues?

Thanks!

I personally think either a second 212 or a second 210 would be the ticket. One or the other, you know? As far as tweeter placement, turning one off and using only the top speaker's tweeter is the way to go.

I must say that it makes me feel good that so many people are going vertical. I did it a year ago and never looked back. People are becoming more and more educated about speakers and placement, and it really pays off to do things the right way IMHO. I also see cab companies following these discussions and designing more and more cabs accordingly.

 

[SteveD]

Thanks, JimmyM! It's amazing what I learn around here. I've been playing for 35 years but never been a gearhead. There is so much to learn.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

This is very interesting, thanks for the discussion. I use an Aguilar GS112 and stack an Avatar BR210 Neo on top vertically. Would a second 210 be better than the Ag? How do I tell about tweeter placement issues?

Thanks!

For the output of multiple drivers to integrate their centers should be less than a wavelength apart on the vertical axis. At 4kHz that's about 3.4 inches, and as you go higher that distance gets smaller. Extended range woofers perform less than optimally when not vertically aligned. With tweeters it's far worse.

 

[JimmyM]

Thanks, JimmyM! It's amazing what I learn around here. I've been playing for 35 years but never been a gearhead. There is so much to learn.

Same here, bro. All of a sudden last year I got interested in it, and now I understand why I didn't like many rigs I played over the years. I'll never be an amp designer, but it's nice to learn about it for a change and put together efficient rigs that are smaller than an SVT but just as powerful.

 

[Fajah]

The tweeter locations are totally screwed with that set-up, as every position places them a few wavelengths apart. I'd be turning the tweeter off in whichever cab is on the bottom.

I got into a tweeter discussion about 6 months ago and the advice back then was to turn the bottom off completely. I found that the AE112 tends to sound muddy with it off completely. The dial set to 9:00 o'clock seemed to work for me. This may not be the case with the 210, so I will be turning it off completely to start.

I'm also going to try the 210 on it's own and placed horizontally for a set, just to see how it handles the room.

 

[Saluki]

Fajah,

I tried that exact setup (berg AE112, HS210), but actually preferred the AE112 ontop of the HS210 in the vertical position. You can turn the tweet down on the HS210 a bit and sticking it on the floor helps a bit with the perceived low end. It is a bit more unstable but it sounds great. I don't have the AE112 anymore, but I have the EX112ER. That combined with the HS210 sounds better with the EX112ER on the floor and the HS210 on top in vertical position. It has more low end than the AE112/HS210 combo but doesn't punch as well. I prefer the AE112/HS210 combo.

Also, when I had Vics AE210, I tried the different configs of the HS210/AE210. I prefer the HS210 on top of the AE210 both vertical to any of the combos. Including the HS210/HS210 combo. It just seems the AE210 and HS210 were made for each other IMO.

 

[Fajah]

Gigged last night with this setup:

It made a big difference having the 210 horizontal. The sound was focused outward and not sideways as much as before. Overall tone was good, although it felt like the bottom end was bit more subdued when compared to having the 112 on the bottom. I was the only one who really noticed it and it's probably because I generally prefer 12's over 10's. I have been considering replacing the HS210 with another AE112, but still not sure.

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[KJung]

Gigged last night with this setup:

It made a big difference having the 210 horizontal. The sound was focused outward and not sideways as much as before. Overall tone was good, although it felt like the bottom end was bit more subdued when compared to having the 112 on the bottom. I was the only one who really noticed it and it's probably because I generally prefer 12's over 10's. I have been considering replacing the HS210 with another AE112, but still not sure.

Thanks for everyone's input.

That's exactly how I run my Bergantino 's' stack. I like that positioning. It seems to tighten up the low end a bit with the 12 on top, and I find the slight fatter tone of the 12 a little more pleasant being closer to my ear than the 210. Just IMO.

Nice rig!

 

[poomwah]

when I use a 210 by itself, I never thought about the difference in sound. not until I read this thread
anyway, I run vertical just so I don't have to bend over as far to get to the amp

 

[ihixulu]

The vertical orientation places my beer at just about the right height.

 

[Saluki]

Fajah,

What is the reasoning for possibly replacing the HS210 with AE112? If it is more low end you won't get it IMO. It really is about surface area of the drivers and 2-10's are greater than 1-12. If it is more punch, form factor or just more punch then I agree. If you want more low end and still retain the mid clarity/low end punch replace the AE112 with a AE210 and put the HS210 ontop of the AE210. I just ran my HS210 Vertical on top of my EX112ER all weekend and I thought it was great. Man I love bergs.

 

[stflbn]

Dave at Avatar was pleased to hear I was using his b210's stacked vertically. He sent me a couple new badges so I could reposition the badges so they'd look 'right' vertically.

When I'm using just one cab I still use it vertically. Just sounds better IMHO.


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