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Steely Dan + Sklar?
- Thread starter ZenderBender
- Start date
In response to the Dave fan.
As for the thing about DMB fans, I meant that MOST are not musicianly. Of course I know musicians who are into DMB. One of them is related to a cat who was one of the guests on "Before These Crowded Streets." The guy I know is so fanatically devoted to them that he can never say anything remotely critical of them. It's sad. At least I can come out and say that "Gaucho" was a pretty weak album, as was "Everything Must Go" or that "Rikki" and "Reelin" are pretty overrated. Even the everyday album, which was slammed by many DMB fans, was met with nothing but love from this guy.
As for non-corny music about sexually pleasing your woman, there's this album called "Let's Get It On" by Marvin Gaye. The only reason why it sounds a tad campy is the 30+ years since it came out. It also features James Jamerson on most of the tracks. You can't go wrong with that. Listen to "Distant Lover" and "You Sure Love to Ball" the combination of Jamerson's sensual bass and Marvin's almost-crying, whispering delivery is overpowering.
But back to DMB. It struck me to do a little comparison, since this is Steely Dan thread. I'm gonna have to say that it's a foregone conclusion what happens if you put LeRoi up against Wayne Shorter, Phil Woods, Chris Potter, Cornelius Bumpus, Walt Weiskopf or even Tom Scott or Dave Sanborn.
The only guy in DMB who can really compete head on with the Steely Dan players is Carter. I have nothing but respect for that guy. The way he builds grooves, the diversity of the playing concepts he fuses together, the power, the virtuosity, the way he can make any tempo groove, the fills, everything about that guy is amazing. Any of those videos off the "Under the Table and Drumming" video is great.
As for bass, Stefan is a pretty good bassist. The "Rapunzel" bass part is alright. The problem for me in evaluating his playing is that DMB isn't my bag, and where as drumming isnt' as tied into the melody and harmony of a song, bass playing is. So irrespective of the music, Carter can groove, but because Stefan is a bit more tied-in to the melody and harmony, he's a bit held back by the nature of DMB's music. I can't really evaluate whether he's is as good as Chuck Rainey because DMB isn't quite in the same ballpark musically. It would be interesting to give him the changes to "Kid Charlemagne" if he didn't know the song and see what he came up with for bass. But, alas, that will probably never happen.
As for the thing about DMB fans, I meant that MOST are not musicianly. Of course I know musicians who are into DMB. One of them is related to a cat who was one of the guests on "Before These Crowded Streets." The guy I know is so fanatically devoted to them that he can never say anything remotely critical of them. It's sad. At least I can come out and say that "Gaucho" was a pretty weak album, as was "Everything Must Go" or that "Rikki" and "Reelin" are pretty overrated. Even the everyday album, which was slammed by many DMB fans, was met with nothing but love from this guy.
As for non-corny music about sexually pleasing your woman, there's this album called "Let's Get It On" by Marvin Gaye. The only reason why it sounds a tad campy is the 30+ years since it came out. It also features James Jamerson on most of the tracks. You can't go wrong with that. Listen to "Distant Lover" and "You Sure Love to Ball" the combination of Jamerson's sensual bass and Marvin's almost-crying, whispering delivery is overpowering.
But back to DMB. It struck me to do a little comparison, since this is Steely Dan thread. I'm gonna have to say that it's a foregone conclusion what happens if you put LeRoi up against Wayne Shorter, Phil Woods, Chris Potter, Cornelius Bumpus, Walt Weiskopf or even Tom Scott or Dave Sanborn.
The only guy in DMB who can really compete head on with the Steely Dan players is Carter. I have nothing but respect for that guy. The way he builds grooves, the diversity of the playing concepts he fuses together, the power, the virtuosity, the way he can make any tempo groove, the fills, everything about that guy is amazing. Any of those videos off the "Under the Table and Drumming" video is great.
As for bass, Stefan is a pretty good bassist. The "Rapunzel" bass part is alright. The problem for me in evaluating his playing is that DMB isn't my bag, and where as drumming isnt' as tied into the melody and harmony of a song, bass playing is. So irrespective of the music, Carter can groove, but because Stefan is a bit more tied-in to the melody and harmony, he's a bit held back by the nature of DMB's music. I can't really evaluate whether he's is as good as Chuck Rainey because DMB isn't quite in the same ballpark musically. It would be interesting to give him the changes to "Kid Charlemagne" if he didn't know the song and see what he came up with for bass. But, alas, that will probably never happen.
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
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DMB- Steely Dan..........
C'Mon, DMB is cool, but they are FAR from Steely Dan on darn near EVERY level.
They just don't compare to me.
From a "bass" stand point, I can play quite a few lines from Steely Dan and people recognize them- the bass line can carry the song.
I own quite few DMB discs, to be honest, most lines by Steffan are quite forgettable and simple. But not just for simple sake and "playing for the song". But thats all he can bring.
I have their "Live at Red Rocks" disc and another live one a buddy burned for me. I am still yet to hear anything come from him that any competent bass player would do.
Hell, that video with Carter and Victor Wooten.....at one point they bring up Steffan and both Victor and CArter give weird looks to one another and give a benign answer to the question of how good he is.
I mean when the drummer in your own band won't step up and flat out say at the VERY least, "Yeah, he's cool and does his thing", well......
Like I said, cool and all, but nothing on any musical level that would compete with SD!
So I don't get flamed.....all IMO naturally!
C'Mon, DMB is cool, but they are FAR from Steely Dan on darn near EVERY level.
They just don't compare to me.
From a "bass" stand point, I can play quite a few lines from Steely Dan and people recognize them- the bass line can carry the song.
I own quite few DMB discs, to be honest, most lines by Steffan are quite forgettable and simple. But not just for simple sake and "playing for the song". But thats all he can bring.
I have their "Live at Red Rocks" disc and another live one a buddy burned for me. I am still yet to hear anything come from him that any competent bass player would do.
Hell, that video with Carter and Victor Wooten.....at one point they bring up Steffan and both Victor and CArter give weird looks to one another and give a benign answer to the question of how good he is.
I mean when the drummer in your own band won't step up and flat out say at the VERY least, "Yeah, he's cool and does his thing", well......
Like I said, cool and all, but nothing on any musical level that would compete with SD!
So I don't get flamed.....all IMO naturally!
Huh. It just seems odd to me that Carter is even IN DMB. I mean, it seems like if I was in a bar with him and we both had a few drinks, with my lowered inhibitions I would trash talk Boyd, Leroi and Stefan and he, in his lowered inhibitions would just agree. I mean, he won't stick up for the BASS PLAYER and he's a drummer. Those two members of any band lock down the groove, they are closer to each other than they are to any other musicians in terms of their musical roles. If he doesn't like the other guys in DMB why doesn't he strike out? There are plenty of who are great but have a beef with someone. Take Stuart Zender. He is really angry with Jay Kay. All that would need to happen would be for the original Jamiroquai bass and keys (Zender and Toby Smith) to hook up with Carter, and get a new singer, and BAM!!! instant musical greatness.
MikeBass: Two questions:
1. If DMB's musicianship is so questionable, why are they cool?
2. Can you play "Kid Charlemagne?" Now THAT is a bassline. It's like the second coming of James Jamerson.
Rainey is amazing.
1. If DMB's musicianship is so questionable, why are they cool?
2. Can you play "Kid Charlemagne?" Now THAT is a bassline. It's like the second coming of James Jamerson.
Rainey is amazing.
MikeBass
Supporting Member
- Nov 4, 2003
- 11,943
- 3,140
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist- Suhr basses, PedalTrain, GHS, Ultimate Ears
1- I don't have to hold in utmost respect a bands musical abilities to dig them or think they are cool. I like things by INXS to Rascal Flatts. Neither of which I would place in the arena of killer musical abilities- but they are still cool IMO.
In fact I like a LOT of newer country and Contemporary Christian Music as well.
2- And yes, I can play Kid Charlemagne. Can you??
(VERY cool line BTW!)
I respectfully disagree with you on those final couple of sentences. While theres some of JJ in Chuck's playing (no doubt because Chuck was so heavily influenced by him and listened to him A LOT) your post implies that Chuck went one better and essentially perfected what JJ had been doing.
I couldnt disagree more...JJ's playing was almost perfect to begin with and I dont think Chuck went one better . I mean, come on...'How long has that evening train been gone?', 'darling dear?' theres some serious bass virtuosity going on there and while I love Chucks playing (especially on Kid Charlemagne IMO Steely Dan's greatest tune) I havent ever heard him do anything which eclipses those two standout jamerson cuts. I would say if such an accolade was warranted then the mantle of perfecting what JJ had done surely belongs to Anthony Jackson who has the same Rhythmic sensibilities as JJ but has reached a level of technical mastery on the instrument few can approach.
There is a mild similarity though... Chuck like JJ was definitely coming from the soul/r&b thing (dont know if Chuck was into Jazz when he was coming up though and whether that influenced his playing at all)
1. I agree. I just tend to think of "musicianship" as a broader word than "chops." If DMB's chops sucked but they had good songs, it would be cool, but I just think Dave's songwriting is pretty bland. I love the Clash, and they really weren't a chops band (except for Topper) and they ruled because of their songs and attitude.
2. Nope. I'm a beginner at bass, though 7 years of guitar helped to prepare me a bit. I can learn lines quickly, and I already have learned a number of classic Jamerson and Dunn lines. But the level of sophistication of Rainey is freakin' scary. For example, let's suppose that James Jamerson was still in good health in '75 and '76 and they brought him in instead of Rainey. I would imagine that it would've been a pretty busy line, but there would probably be at least a few points where I could regroup because Jamerson loved to throw in root-fifth-octave patterns to open up the grooves. And root-fifth-octave patterns can be easily done in single position, giving the bassist time to get his bearings before plunging into more crazy virtuosity. With Rainey's line, you are not gonna get that! It's just ON, all the time. Amazing, but frightening. Add to that that for the longest time, I had trouble "digging into the track" for low-mixed bass parts, so I didn't discern Rainey well for a long time. So I've only been able to analyze the bass parts for a few months now, but it is truly scary. I think I'll stick to Jamerson for now. Maybe I'll start with a Dan bassline like "Black Cow."
2. Nope. I'm a beginner at bass, though 7 years of guitar helped to prepare me a bit.
I can learn lines quickly, and I already have learned a number of classic Jamerson and Dunn lines. But the level of sophistication of Rainey is freakin' scary. For example, let's suppose that James Jamerson was still in good health in '75 and '76 and they brought him in instead of Rainey. I would imagine that it would've been a pretty busy line, but there would probably be at least a few points where I could regroup because Jamerson loved to throw in root-fifth-octave patterns to open up the grooves. And root-fifth-octave patterns can be easily done in single position, giving the bassist time to get his bearings before plunging into more crazy virtuosity. With Rainey's line, you are not gonna get that! It's just ON, all the time. Amazing, but frightening. Add to that that for the longest time, I had trouble "digging into the track" for low-mixed bass parts, so I didn't discern Rainey well for a long time. So I've only been able to analyze the bass parts for a few months now, but it is truly scary. I think I'll stick to Jamerson for now. Maybe I'll start with a Dan bassline like "Black Cow."Chuck loved jazz! He played trumpet in high school, and his first bass influence was Jimmy Smith's feet, which is an interesting forerunner of how so many cats now cite 'Stevie's left hand" as an influence. If you go onto Chuck's website, there are two articles commemorating influences. One is for James. The other is for Jimmy.
But anyway, I just Rainey built upon Jamerson, and made his own style out of it. Maybe "perfected" was the wrong word, though even if I said I preferred Rainey to Jamerson, at least I'd be in good company. Will Lee prefers Rainey.
Yeah...I thought he would have had jazz influences...i just wasnt sure.
I love Chuck's playing...hes a master. JJ is my Favorite player
Will Lee...Well...let me put it this way, If a chameleon could play bass, in an style genre, setting and venue...His name would be Will Lee!
Good discussion
Will Lee was called in to play on the last tune on Night fly, the swing sounding one, I think it's called Between The Raindrops. What I heard is Will wanted to slap it and Donald wanted to slap him. He handed Will the chart and said play every note the way it's written or get the F-out. It bent Will out of shape, but Donald was paying him so why cry. ..... I'm sure he's over it. ..... SD Gold CD works great but leaves out all the newer CD's plus Donald's Morph The Cat which has great bass playing on them. I understand Donald is the real stickler for bottom end detail. Groove/feel and note duration have to be perfect. Chuck R. slapped on Peg but had to do it behind the twins, Walter and Donald's back so they didn't see him. There's not much slap in the Dan's catalog.
BM
BM
IMHO, Aja. Ranks with Miles' "Kind of Blue" as definitive late 20th century music.
I think that they've gotten more relaxed about slapping over the years. I've heard a lot of slapping on the many live recordings I have by them, and when i saw them, Freddie "Forget Me Nots" Washington was in the bass seat. He slapped the hell out of his bass when they announced his name. I think they may have feared back then that slap would take over and kill off fingerstyle, given its prevalence. Now, they're cool with it. The only current studio guy who will NEVER slap is Anthony Jackson. Maybe they should use him. Though I'd be psyched if they used Randy-Hope Taylor on the next album.
I prefer Countdown to Ecstacy and Aja.
BTW, Fagen hit the nail on the head about the figured-top fancy bass being to compensate for poor mothering. I am the poster child for that. Just look at my basses, and don't ask about my mother.
True....and the fact that Anthony refuses to slap...does not detract one bit from his playing.
Here is a player who has such total mastery of the instrument utilizing his current palette of techniques that he makes any perceived requirement to slap ....well.....redundant IMO
Im sure he could be a virtuoso slapper if he wanted to but I doubt whether that would really do much to enhance his already monumental command of the instrument
I'm not trying to cut Jackson down at all. I'm just saying "If Steely Dan wants a cat who will NEVER try to disobey them when it comes to slapping, Anthony is their man." Yes, there are older, 60s-era players who won't slap, but few of them are doing dates anymore.
One of the things that struck me as odd is that there are people who bash slapping but play with a pick. It's one thing for someone to be diehard fingerstyle guy who bashes any other style, but for a pick player to bash a slapper just seems kinda shallow. It seems to me that the pick player is equally "out-of-line" from a conservative standpoint as a slapper, and for a pick player to criticize someone for using the "wrong" technique is cheap given that they themselves are not using the orthodox technique.
One of the things that struck me as odd is that there are people who bash slapping but play with a pick. It's one thing for someone to be diehard fingerstyle guy who bashes any other style, but for a pick player to bash a slapper just seems kinda shallow. It seems to me that the pick player is equally "out-of-line" from a conservative standpoint as a slapper, and for a pick player to criticize someone for using the "wrong" technique is cheap given that they themselves are not using the orthodox technique.
Yeah. I can't stand how so many people bash Two Against Nature. My one and only beef with it is that I think that the bass should be left to the studio guys. I think Tom Barney should've played across that whole album!
But yeah. Two Against Nature is my second-favorite!
But yeah. Two Against Nature is my second-favorite!
