What I don't get is why Steely Dan is so polarizing. Why aren't Donald and Walter just commonly accepted as musical greats? Why after all these years are there still people going around who don't get the genius of combining Motown-like basslines, tight drum grooves, jazz-based chord progressions, amazing improvisations, pop catchiness, and witty lyrics into an organic, fluid style?
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Steely Dan + Sklar?
- Thread starter ZenderBender
- Start date
Why did you suddenly start talking about the Dave Matthews Band?
Just kidding, it's a good question. I think Steely Dan maybe got caught in the middle of genres -- too jazz-y for rock fans and too rock-y for jazz fans. They also had some fairly inscrutable lyrics -- like, I only understood what "Deacon Blues" was about recently, after I saw them being interviewed about it on YouTube. Now when I hear it, I think "wow, what a great song". I also think that you almost have to be a musician to appreciate the quality of the performances in their music.
Why did you suddenly start talking about the Dave Matthews Band?
There's a band I can't get into.
It's like I want to like them, because they sound like they are good, but it's a lot of rambling singing and way too much pseudo cleverness.I think that hits the nail right on the head. I knew people who liked their more rock stuff, like Reeling in the Years, which I never cared for, and they hated the jazzier stuff. Hated it! Like my brother used to say, "don't waste good hate on bad music!"
Quiz time... Who knows where the name "Steely Dan" came from, and what it is? They sure like obscure references. "Chasing the dragon" is another one.
It is certainly music for a trained ear... but so is a lot of jazz and classical.
But that's often how it is... writers don't dumb down the words they use worrying about their audience. Unless you work for a newspaper!
I've never quite gotten the whole idea that DMB and Steely Dan are somehow equivalent to each other. That DMB is the modern steely dan. I mean, DMB is so bland it's ridiculous. Basically, there are two great musicians (Carter, and to a lesser extent, Stefan) in DMB. The two soloists (LeRoi, and especially Boyd) don't cut it. Boyd's solos are all the same, and LeRoi sounds like a guy who tried to play jazz, but couldn't cut it, and got into DMB for some relief from the rigors of jazz. The DMB fans don't strike me as very musicianly. When they debate people who, for example, don't like Boyd playing out of tune all the time, they just say that Boyd runs around the stage a lot. They care more aboiut the spectacle of a big black dude playing the hell out a violin than they care about the music.
And witty lyrics? DMB? DMB puts out some of the most corny lyrics. One listen to "Rapunzel" is all you need to know that.
That being said, some of the DMB studio stuff is alright because they they cut down on the bland rambling, produce the hell out of Boyd and LeRoi, (pitch-correcting the former, drenching the latter with reverb), and they bring in guys who can actually play (like Tim Reynolds) to take solos.
But Carter is the man.
And witty lyrics? DMB? DMB puts out some of the most corny lyrics. One listen to "Rapunzel" is all you need to know that.
That being said, some of the DMB studio stuff is alright because they they cut down on the bland rambling, produce the hell out of Boyd and LeRoi, (pitch-correcting the former, drenching the latter with reverb), and they bring in guys who can actually play (like Tim Reynolds) to take solos.
But Carter is the man.
and I see classic Steely Dan as jazz-pop, not jazz-rock. Their earliest stuff was a kind of country-rock. I think that had they not factored in the jazz, but continued to evolve at the same pace, they would've wound up with something quite similar to Hotel California.
I think you're wrong there - Walter and Donald would never have ended up as this - but their original band would - i.e. Jeff Skunk Baxter etc - that's why they ditched the band in a way...?
So Walter and Donald were always big Jazz fans and as soon as they ditched the band at the time of Pretzel Logic, you can see the Jazz come through- as in Mr Parker's band. East St. Louis Toodle etc .
Whereas the band was sort of holding them back as it was basically a rock band that had limitations and a desire to play a certain style...?
I've never experienced this - everybody I know in England loves Steely Dan - especially musicians - I've never met anybody in person who disliked them....?
It's only on this forum that there seem to be doubters...?
But in interviews Walter and Donald have explored this - so they mention how there is usually a big divide between people who like clever lyrics being "musical primitives" - so it is usually one or the other. Whereas Steely Dan has great lyrics and great music!
I don't see either of those as "obscure"...
Although reference to Cathy Berberian may count!!
http://www.cathyberberian.com/
All I know is that in terms of guitar playing Skunk Baxter could kick Joe Walsh's ass. Or actually, he could bomb Joe Walsh given his current job.
Errr ..missing out on some great American Culture!!
[cough]Burroughs[cough]
They even made a film of Naked Lunch so you don't have to read a book!!
All I know is that in terms of guitar playing Skunk Baxter could kick Joe Walsh's ass. Or actually, he could bomb Joe Walsh given his current job.
The fact that you can even talk about the two in the same terms, proves my point!!
He plays a great Jazzy solo on the coda to "King of the World" and was the only member of the regular band to make it as far as Pretzel Logic!
You don't have to dance for me
I've seen your dance before
Do you throw out your gold teeth
Do you see how they roll
Tobacco they grow in Peking
In the Year of the Locust
You'll see a sad thing
Even Cathy Berberian knows
There's one roulade she can't sing
Dumb luck my friend
Won't suck me in this time
I guess I wasn't clear. I actually agree that the original band would have been similar to the Eagles. But the removal of Baxter and Hodder was part and parcel of that jazz infusion.
Also, Dias actually made it all the way to Aja. Most of the title-track guitar solos are Denny (with a little bit here and there by Becker.) Personally, I think Denny's finest hour was the solo in "Your Gold Teeth II."
Also, Dias actually made it all the way to Aja. Most of the title-track guitar solos are Denny (with a little bit here and there by Becker.) Personally, I think Denny's finest hour was the solo in "Your Gold Teeth II."
Wow, I see/hear zero in common with the Eagles & SD's original line-up.
At the trime of SD's debut, I was pretty much a Hard Rock/Acid Rock buyer/listener...."Do It Again" just blew me away beacuse it was so different than anything I had been listening to.
The Eagles were comprised of guys from the Folk-Rock side of the house...maybe I missed something?
At the trime of SD's debut, I was pretty much a Hard Rock/Acid Rock buyer/listener...."Do It Again" just blew me away beacuse it was so different than anything I had been listening to.
The Eagles were comprised of guys from the Folk-Rock side of the house...maybe I missed something?
As I said before - at the time the Dan were out on their own and the only thing coming close I can remember was Michael McDonald with the Doobie Brothers - although some of that sounds 'dated' now, whereas this doesn't seem to apply to SD!
Coming later I can think of Little Feat's Last Record Album...?
Another thing I was thinking of was how Walter and Donald were clever in using electric guitar for solos - whereas if they had exactly the same solo on say, Sax - it may have alienated a large part of the rock audience that picked up on them!?
So by the time of Aja - they were big enough not worry about that - but it helped build an audience that would have been turned off by even a hint of Jazz!!
Coming later I can think of Little Feat's Last Record Album...?
Another thing I was thinking of was how Walter and Donald were clever in using electric guitar for solos - whereas if they had exactly the same solo on say, Sax - it may have alienated a large part of the rock audience that picked up on them!?
So by the time of Aja - they were big enough not worry about that - but it helped build an audience that would have been turned off by even a hint of Jazz!!
I'll throw this out there, how about the early 70's version of the Rascals when they added Pops Popwell and Buzzy Feiten to the band*, to me that was pretty close to the direction Becker & Fagan ended up going.
*with some horns by Joe Farrell and David Sanborn.
*with some horns by Joe Farrell and David Sanborn.
