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Steely Dan + Sklar?

#121
ZenderBender said:
I'm not trying to cut Jackson down at all. I'm just saying "If Steely Dan wants a cat who will NEVER try to disobey them when it comes to slapping, Anthony is their man." Yes, there are older, 60s-era players who won't slap, but few of them are doing dates anymore.

One of the things that struck me as odd is that there are people who bash slapping but play with a pick. It's one thing for someone to be diehard fingerstyle guy who bashes any other style, but for a pick player to bash a slapper just seems kinda shallow. It seems to me that the pick player is equally "out-of-line" from a conservative standpoint as a slapper, and for a pick player to criticize someone for using the "wrong" technique is cheap given that they themselves are not using the orthodox technique.
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I dont see why a pick playing should not be considered as an orthodox technique...One has to keep things in context and remember that when the electric bass was invented, it was done so with both upright players AND cross over guitarists in mind.

There is nothing funkier than an electric bass played with a pick while employing the palm mute (well actually there is...its called a clavinet but thats outside the realms of this discussion!)

I think Anthony's opinion may have derived to some extent from his observations concerning the overuse of slapping as a technique at a certain point along the musical continuum. It would be hard to argue that it hasnt been overdone in some circles.

However...when its done by Larry graham or Louis john son...its completely appropriate.
 
#122
ZenderBender said:
"Don't take me alive" is awesome. Especially the bassline! I love how Chuck stretches much higher in the range of the instrument than you'd think. I love how Chuck always breaks the rules. You'd think you'd have a pretty decent idea of how a bassline would go in a given song, and then Chuck just blows away your expectations. He was like the next generation of Jamerson. He took the basic Jamerson concept and perfected it.
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ZenderBender said:
What I don't get is why Steely Dan is so polarizing. Why aren't Donald and Walter just commonly accepted as musical greats? Why after all these years are there still people going around who don't get the genius of combining Motown-like basslines, tight drum grooves, jazz-based chord progressions, amazing improvisations, pop catchiness, and witty lyrics into an organic, fluid style?
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Nothing to add. <-----So why post?

DavidRavenMoon said:
Like my brother used to say, "don't waste good hate on bad music!"
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Good one.
 
#123
Funk 'n' Stein:

I have an "anything goes" approach to techniques. I don't give a damn if you hit your strings with a xylophone mallet! But the thing is, for better or for worse, many consider the two-fingered fingerstyle approach the default way to play the bass. It is typically these individuals who bash slap playing. People who use a pick are equally "wrong" by this terrible, backwards standard. So if you play with a pick, you have no right to bash the slappers, because you are equally "wrong" of you apply consistent standards. Now, as for me, it's all good! But if you feel the need to say that slapping is wrong, get that pick out of your hand!
 
#124
as for picking with palm mute, yeah, that's funky! Especially mixing it up! Like muting a note, then playing an unmuted octave. Or, I've even recently experimented with using a pick to play a palm-muted note, then popping the octave with my ring finger so I can keep holding the pick like normal.
 
#125
ZenderBender said:
Funk 'n' Stein:

I have an "anything goes" approach to techniques. I don't give a damn if you hit your strings with a xylophone mallet! But the thing is, for better or for worse, many consider the two-fingered fingerstyle approach the default way to play the bass. It is typically these individuals who bash slap playing. People who use a pick are equally "wrong" by this terrible, backwards standard. So if you play with a pick, you have no right to bash the slappers, because you are equally "wrong" of you apply consistent standards. Now, as for me, it's all good! But if you feel the need to say that slapping is wrong, get that pick out of your hand!
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I understand where you are coming, but my contention remains that pick playing is equally as valid as fingerstyle and i dont necessarily see fingerstyle as the default way of playing. There is NO right or wrong way to play the bass

From a pickers perspective, it is a bass GUITAR after all. Many GREAT GREAT players have carved successful careers and set benchmarks in the bass world while playing exclusively with a pick . Joe Osborn and Carol Kaye spring to mind.

As far as people who continually and unjustifiably criticize others for the techniques they employ in their pursuit of the instrument...well it doesnt make any difference whether you play with a pick or not...you really shouldnt 'bash' other players because they dont fit within the playing realm that you may consider orthodox.

Then again I do believe you have a right to criticise in an objective and constructive manner no matter the technique you employ. This should not be confused with 'bashing'.

Your argument is based on the premise that a player is less qualified to offer an opinion on the validity of slapping as a technique because he/she plays bass with a pick. With the greatest respect, I think you've made a somewhat broad generalization . To use a Hypothetical example, thats akin to saying that a guy like Wes Montgomery shouldnt have criticised other guitar players because he played with his thumb (which, applying your logic, is not the default technique for guitar...pick playing is...and yet look at all the 'Flamenco' style players who play with their thumb and fingers )

And i dont think anyone is saying that slapping is wrong...

I believe in Anthony's case he is certainly not bashing the player...its the overuse and inappropriate use of the technique that he doesnt agree with...(and who can really blame him). He is offering a STRONG objective assessment based on his experience. I agree with him; Some slapping is way over the top and just not musical. Again, this applies to any technique in any genre. I think this is his main beef. Its because the technique has been so overdone and everyone seemed to jump on the 'slap' bandwagon at one time or another

I am predominantly a fingerstyle player and i occasionally thump and pluck, but its not my foremost technique. I LOVE Larry Graham, he plays with strength conviction and is just about the funkiest cat ever to strap on a bass. I LOVE Louis especially on the MM stingray...awesome player. SO im not biased to any degree. I occasionally play with a pick. Does thie fact that i do then mean that I dont have a right to say that I think Mark King's slap playing ( to use an example) is over the top...(Im not bashing him, hes an incredible technician who in my opinion, sounds like a musical sewing machine) I think not .

Good discussion
 
#126
I actually agree with you in many ways. I just feel that techniques are techniques. You shouldn't be trying to diminish a technique in and of itself. But if you do, don't play with a technique that has an equal amount of detractors as the technique you are diminishing. Otherwise, you are standing on thin ice. This is strictly practical advice, it has nothing to do with your rights as a musician to make thoughtful critiques. So Carol Kaye has every right to say whatever she wants about slapping. But at the end of the day, it's a bad idea to piss off a mob of bass players, especially if many of them think that your playing technique is stupid as well. If you bash a technique while playing with a rather controversial technique yourself, you'll have no friends, because (for example) you'll anger both the slappers and the people who are anti-pick, and all you'd have is Anthony Jackson, Joe Osborne, Carol Kaye, and a bunch of punk bassists to defend you. It's strictly practical advice. Want to antagonize people and make tons of enemies? By all means, go ahead, but it isn't the best way to go about things.


But yeah, pick playing is ok by me. I'm just not big on the combination of a pick and roundwounds. The Chris Squire tone isn't my bag. And I'm not too fond of most punk bassists either. Now, a pick and FLATS!!! That's just divine. McCartney, Cetera, Kaye,. All those tones are great.
 
#128
Tommy-P said:
I love steely dad but since I moved in with my mom I hav'nt got access to my dads cd's. If I was to go out and get one steely dan album today, in your opinion which should I get? Is there one particular album that epitomizes them? Can't really tell you what I think about those bassists though but that guy on their last dvd rules. They make fun of him in the extras for playing an esp instead of some expensive custom job that would do the same thing lol
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Tough.....
Aja's the usual pick, but i would go with Pretzel Logic, Katy Lied, or Royal Scam. But SD were all over the place that its hard to pick one. If you can, find a copy of Citizen Steely Dan. Its a box set with all of their 70's albums. You can probably find it cheap.
 
#132
A lot of people have criticized the drumming on Two Against Nature as being sterile. I don't really get this given the fact that Gaucho was so stiff, I mean on Gaucho, a large chunk of the drumming was literally a robot, WENDEL. 2VN was so great, organic and funky, i really don't get those statements about generic grooves.
 
#134
Agreed, "Babylon Sisters" has Grrrrroooove...

Will add "Glamour Profession" (also from Gaucho) is one of my personal favourite tunes...any artist, any genre. Great tune to study/transcribe/learn for those basslines that cross the barline.
 
#135
I've told my students when the question is asked of me "What cd's should I get/listen too??"
If you want to be a good "Pop" styled bass player, learn "Aja".
A good groovy, solid jazz/funk player (note I said solid) "Upfront" by David Sanborn.
 

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