Stereo IEM system advice

[mwbassace]

Hello TB. I've been using the XVive U4 system for awhile now & the learning curve is over. I want to be able to pan stuff, especially vocals. So looking for recommendations/advice on a stereo IEM system. Just for FYI, both my bands use a Behringer X Air XR18 mixer & I'm borrowing one of my guitfiddler's Behringer P16-M.

Maybe someday I'll get to use KLANG 3D/Binaural IEM system!

Thanks Y'all!

 

[musicman7722]

If you can go line vs. wireless it is easy peasy. You need to use two outputs from your mixer into a stereo receiving device of some sort. A small inexpensive mixer is ideal. Run your ear buds out of the headphone jack on the min mixer. leave the mixer panned to center as the panning effect is done on your iem app.

 

[SoCal80s]

The magic happens in the mixer, so you have to tackle that learning curve. I don't have experience with the XR18, but basically you connect the Aux 1 output (for example) to the left input of your IEM transmitter, then connect Aux 2 to the right input. You link the 2 Auxes together so the mixer knows they are working together in stereo, and then there should be a pan control for each channel when you go into your aux mixes. Use the pan control to set each channel to one side or the other or anywhere in-between.

 

[mwbassace]

Thanks y'all but I'm very knowledgeable on hooking up & operating the mixer(s) & wireless IEM units. I'm looking for what wireless units work for people (Shure, Mipro, Carvin) & why, plus how you like to pan the other players, stuff like that. And since I'm using the P16 (it's a Cat 5e 16 Ch mixer in it's own right), two Aux sends are moot.

 

[SoCal80s]

...I'm looking for ...how you like to pan the other players, stuff like that

Best advice I can give is to keep it simple. If you have too much in your ears you'll tire your ears sooner. For drums, just the overheads are fine (they pick up plenty of the kick too). For guitars and keys, do you really need all 3 in your ears? Just one should be fine, maybe lightly add another. If you are not singing, then you don't need any backing vox, though a little lead vox can be helpful to know what part of the song you're at.

 

[Wasnex]

The magic happens in the mixer, so you have to tackle that learning curve.

The P16M is a separate personal mixer that runs off an ultranet connector on the back of the XR18.

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The controls on the P16M should be fairly intuitive.
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AFAIK, the channels 1-16 provided by Ultranet are channels 1-16 on the XR18. The channels are digital and taken off before any processing is done in the XR18. Functionally, it's sort of like getting parallel copy of the inputs through a split snake. I believe ultranet is pretty much plug and play, although it gets a bit more complicated if you run a bunch of P16-Ms.

AFAIK you can monitor directly using the stereo 1/4" Phones out or use the L/R Line Outs to drive an IEM transmitter.

 

[mwbassace]

AFAIK, the channels 1-16 provided by Ultranet are channels 1-16 on the XR18. The channels are digital and taken off before any processing is done in the XR18. Functionally, it's sort of like getting parallel copy of the inputs through a split snake. I believe ultranet is pretty much plug and play, although it gets a bit more complicated if you run a bunch of P16-Ms.

Correct on the the 1st sentance. On the IN/OUT page of the XAir app you can set routing of your Inputs; USB Send & Return; Ultranet (which is the Cat 5e connected P16-M); Aux out; Main out. Any of the aforementioned can be tapped at the Input; Pre-EQ; Post-EQ; Pre Fader; Post Fader. Plus you can add mute to any tap point as well (Input+Mute, etc).

 

[mwbassace]

Best advice I can give is to keep it simple. If you have too much in your ears you'll tire your ears sooner. For drums, just the overheads are fine (they pick up plenty of the kick too). For guitars and keys, do you really need all 3 in your ears? Just one should be fine, maybe lightly add another. If you are not singing, then you don't need any backing vox, though a little lead vox can be helpful to know what part of the song you're at.

Thank you. I'm doing way more backing vocals, in both my bands, than I did before & feel the panning will help in hearing them. I also just like how i can hear everything better with IEM's.

 

[s0c9]

The challenge with IEM's - other than the obvious "what to use and how to set it up" discussions - is WHAT to put in your mix!!
It's personal preference, but I think these basics should apply.
For MONO mixes. keep it as simple as possible and the more you add, the less clarity, separation and definition you will lose over time (caused by ear fatigue).
For STEREO mixes, diligent use of panning spreads the sound stage. You get better separation, clarity and definition!
I only put what I need in my mix.
2 guitars - panned to 10 and 2, relative to physical stage location.
Kick, high-hat/snare, bass, pedal steel and lead vox centered. Bass louder (need to hear myself) but a little lower than lead vox.
My backing vox at 1pm and slightly below lead (so I can hear the harmony blend) and 2nd backing vox at 11am - LOWER than mine (so they don't throw me off and I can hear him talk between songs)
My STEREO IEM volume mix is as LOW as I can keep it to where I can hear.

You'll note that I don't have toms, OH's or cymbals listed.
I can hear them acoustically on most stages thru the ADEL ports in my IEM's.

This won't work for everyone, but it's my setup after 10 yrs on IEM's.
At church I use (or quickly setup) a similar type of mix.
Most will need to play with their mix to get it just right.
My focus has always been, only put what you need to hear in the mix that lets you do your job. You're NOT listening to a CD.

YMMV

 

[Wasnex]

@mwbassace
Here is some background info and my recommendations.

1. When you hear a source equally in both ears, you get an effect called binaural summation that increases the perceived SPL by +6dB.
2. Humans cannot effectively localize the lowest frequencies, so they are essentially mono.
3. People generally want to hear their own voice and instrument about 6-10dB louder than other elements in the mix.

Because of these factors, I suggest positioning the lowest instruments like bass and kick drum dead center. Also I suggest putting your personal channels at or near the center. Next pan the other sound sources across the sound field in approximately 3-5dB intervals. The idea is to create as natural of an experience as possible, and many people like to pan the IEM mix to match how people are spaced out on the stage.

Most sound sources should not be hard panned, as it tends to sound artificial and it also puts your ears more at risk. Because of #1 above, a sound that is hard panned must be 6dB louder than if it is centered in the mix. The max panning I use is generally between 15-20dB, and usually closer to 15dB with most sound sources.

The one sound source that may work with harder panning is stereo reverb or other spatial effects that create the perception that sound is coming from all directions...IMHO start with stereo reverb panned to L/R 15 dB and increase the panning slowly until it sounds natural. If a space starts opening in the center of the image, you have gone to far.

Creating a natural sense of space in the mix can really be helpful for vocal intonation. Consider how great it can sound to sing in tiled bathroom. This is a small space so I would suggest a reverb with relatively strong early reflections and a short decay time. It can be a challenge to find the right type of reverb for this.

Although probably not relevant in this case...be very careful with the use of compression in monitors. Too much compression tends to make you feel a bit disconnected from the sound, which will cause you to play or sing harder. This can cause premature fatigue as a bassist, and you may blow out your voice if are singing.

Try to monitor at the lowest possible level. Over time you should learn to find your ideal volume quickly. Do this at the beginning. The reason is EQ and the way instruments are balanced in the mix will change as you turn the mix up or down. I.E. if you get the mix perfect and then change the level, you probably will need to also adjust the EQ and levels of various channels.

There is no right or wrong, only what you like and need. I personally like hearing all of the instruments in a cover band, but I generally don't run toms or snare in the mix as I get plenty from the over heads. Also I generally like a well balanced mix with bass and vocals boosted by the desired 6-10dB.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I'm also on Team Stereo for IEMs. And, if you can go wired the P16 is definitely worthwhile w/ the Behringer mixers.

As with the larger X32 mixers, you can use the routing menus to assign the 16 sources you want to send via Ultranet—any combination of chs 1-16, aux in, FX, buses, mains, and USB returns.

 

[Dewdman42]

As others have already said, if you have a P16, then your problem is solved, that is an excellent solution and you can make your IEM mix as stereo as you want it to be.

I personally like to use stereo always, one way or another, not only for separation but also so that it doesn't sound like a single source of sound in the middle of my head. Another thing I highly recommend if you can find a way to do it, is to use stereo ambient mics on stage and feed that into the X mixer...so that its available, if you have enough channels. It won't be used in the main mix, just available for you guys in your IEM's. This tremendously opens things up so that you don't feel as isolated, you can hear a stereo presence of the stage, and then mix in the desired stuff you want to make sure you hear clearly and panned how you want. If your IEM's already leak a little bit, some do, then you don't need that, but leaky IEM's also don't provide good ear protection. People tend to turn them up even louder in order to drown out the leakage.

I am able to use a stereo mic that is present on my vocal pedal to feed this, but you might have to place some mics on stage somewhere for this purpose that aren't being used for anyone to sing into or for instruments, etc.. Omnis's if possible, then you can hear the crowd too.

If you can't use two channels on the main mixer for this, and you want ambients at least for yourself, then you will need to use a personal mixer of your own and mix the results from the P16 together with whatever you want of your own that isn't in the X mixer...such as those ambient mics. You can do that in between the P16 and your IEM amp/transmitter.

 

[Dewdman42]

@mwbassace
Although probably not relevant in this case...be very careful with the use of compression in monitors. Too much compression tends to make you feel a bit disconnected from the sound, which will cause you to play or sing harder. This can cause premature fatigue as a bassist, and you may blow out your voice if are singing.

Very excellent point. Also keep in mind that pretty much ALL IEM transmission systems have built in limiters...and that is a good thing... but... it also means you have to be careful not to accidentally create compression by over driving the signal to the IEM transmitter station. If you need louder, do it from the actual belt pack volume control. Actually I'm not even sure if there is a limiter in the receiver too..... If you're not using wireless and just using the output direct from the P16, then check the manual and watch the gain stages...because it very well might have a built in limiter also.

 

[Ethereal Thorn]

When going stereo I recommend trying it with a hard wired iem setup first so you can get your mix dialled in and be familiar with panning and everything ahead of time

 

[s0c9]

Very excellent point. Also keep in mind that pretty much ALL IEM transmission systems have built in limiters...and that is a good thing... but... it also means you have to be careful not to accidentally create compression by over driving the signal to the IEM transmitter station. If you need louder, do it from the actual belt pack volume control. Actually I'm not even sure if there is a limiter in the receiver too..... If you're not using wireless and just using the output direct from the P16, then check the manual and watch the gain stages...because it very well might have a built in limiter also.

Most wireless IEM systems with built-in limiters place them in the receiver. I've not yet seen one on the transmitter side, and I've been thru a few of them!
Some limiters are adjustable - usually the high-end models. Some are not.
With the old PSM200 one had to be careful w/ levels as it could trigger the limiter and it would cause "pumping".

Also,
keep in mind that your IEM system needs to be properly "gain staged" just like anything else in the PA. Too little input signal and one induces noise when increasing receiver volume. Too much and you get distortion, or the limiter kicks in!

 

[mwbassace]

Very excellent point. Also keep in mind that pretty much ALL IEM transmission systems have built in limiters...and that is a good thing... but... it also means you have to be careful not to accidentally create compression by over driving the signal to the IEM transmitter station. If you need louder, do it from the actual belt pack volume control. Actually I'm not even sure if there is a limiter in the receiver too..... If you're not using wireless and just using the output direct from the P16, then check the manual and watch the gain stages...because it very well might have a built in limiter also.

Just an FYI, the P16-M has an adjustable limiter & level control (see the OUTPUT section, upper right corner of the unit).

 

[mwbassace]

Most wireless IEM systems with built-in limiters place them in the receiver. I've not yet seen one on the transmitter side, and I've been thru a few of them!
Some limiters are adjustable - usually the high-end models. Some are not.
With the old PSM200 one had to be careful w/ levels as it could trigger the limiter and it would cause "pumping".

Also,
keep in mind that your IEM system needs to be properly "gain staged" just like anything else in the PA. Too little input signal and one induces noise when increasing receiver volume. Too much and you get distortion, or the limiter kicks in!

So since I'll be using the P16-M, would you recommend setting the recievers limiter to off (assuming it's adjustable) & using the P16's? Also, I know you've recommended the Mipro units. Do you still prefer those? What about Carvin & Shure, etc.?

 

[s0c9]

So since I'll be using the P16-M, would you recommend setting the recievers limiter to off (assuming it's adjustable) & using the P16's? Also, I know you've recommended the Mipro units. Do you still prefer those? What about Carvin & Shure, etc.?

SO you have a wireless feed from the P16M? If so, remember that the P16 limiter works backwards.. meaning it's active when rotated to about 3pm [EDIT: brick wall style fully clockwise. You'll need to find that happy point, which is about 3pm for me]. Off is fully counter clockwise. I'd turn it off and use the one on the receiver if you are doing that, or vice versa... but NOT both at the same time!

I had a Senn G3 for 6 yrs. Looked into the G4 upgrade and other than the built-in limiter, Mipro 909 specs were better. I saved 50% on the price and use the limiter on the X32R's output busses.
If you go with the Mipro, use the P16M limiter.

Been thru the Carvin and Shure PSM200 (limited use of 300, which I did not own).
G3/Mipro are much better IME, and [FWIW] I've never used their stock buds (except for the SE215's - ugh!)
Whichever vendor you go with.. make sure that you pick the model with the most open frequencies in your area (read doc in my sig) or like many, you'll blame the IEM system when you get noise, hiss, dropouts and other artifacts due to local TV station interference - that you won't be aware causes those issues.
If you go with the Mipro 5.8G model, you should not have any issues as TV stations don't operate in that frequency range!

 

[Windreaper]

So since I'll be using the P16-M, would you recommend setting the recievers limiter to off (assuming it's adjustable) & using the P16's? Also, I know you've recommended the Mipro units. Do you still prefer those? What about Carvin & Shure, etc.?

The limiters on the packs limit the highest possible headphone output volume by narrowing the range of adjustment. The limiter is adjustable on all worthwhile systems, and should be enabled at all times. Where you set the limiter depends on the sensitivity of your buds. It's also worthwhile to have a brick-wall limiter on the sends to control peaks.

I would also take a look at Sennheiser G4 if you have the budget. We've rented Senn G2-G4 systems, and they have been reliable. The G4 is a tour-grade system, and less $$ than Shure PSM900/1000.

 

[mwbassace]

If you go with the Mipro 5.8G model, you should not have any issues as TV stations don't operate in that frequency range!

Are you referring to the MI-58 system?