Stereo IEM system advice

[Ethereal Thorn]

Thank you for the perspective. To me, that statement reads like "I no longer wear seat belts because I've never been in a car crash". Maybe it's a different perspective for bands with a regular crew, but I often have someone I don't know mixing my monitors. I'll gladly pay more and take a sound quality hit for the safety features, thank you.

It's an interesting trend, though, as consumer audio is moving towards stricter volume regulation schemes, with Apple limiting the maximum output volume of ALL connected BT audio devices. Buds without a volume control now come with warning stating: "only for professional use". You don't need a sudden catastrophic event to ruin your hearing - prolonged exposure to slightly lower SPLs does the trick just as well.

A big reason is most digital mixers that bands use with iems have one built in and it is a extra expense they can save

 

[Windreaper]

A big reason is most digital mixers that bands use with iems have one built in and it is a extra expense they can save

They serve a different purpose and are best used together. A brick-wall limiter in the mixer controls peaks, while the volume limiter in the pack controls how loud you can turn it (it does not compress the signal). There can be a failure after the mixer, or the user can deliberately or accidentally set the receiver output volume to an unsafe level (although there is a volume lock setting in some packs to prevent accidentally bumping the volume knob).

 

[s0c9]

Thank you for the perspective. To me, that statement reads like "I no longer wear seat belts because I've never been in a car crash". Maybe it's a different perspective for bands with a regular crew, but I often have someone I don't know mixing my monitors. I'll gladly pay more and take a sound quality hit for the safety features, thank you.

It's an interesting trend, though, as consumer audio is moving towards stricter volume regulation schemes, with Apple limiting the maximum output volume of ALL connected BT audio devices. Buds without a volume control now come with warning stating: "only for professional use". You don't need a sudden catastrophic event to ruin your hearing - prolonged exposure to slightly lower SPLs does the trick just as well.

I don't read it as saying that at all.. It simply means that "pros" have "pros" mixing their IEM's and those "pros" don't talk about needing limiters in their system.

They serve a different purpose and are best used together. A brick-wall limiter in the mixer controls peaks, while the volume limiter in the pack controls how loud you can turn it (it does not compress the signal). There can be a failure after the mixer, or the user can deliberately or accidentally set the receiver output volume to an unsafe level (although there is a volume lock setting in some packs to prevent accidentally bumping the volume knob).

I think you're missing the point of the commentary, and splitting hairs, so lets back up.
I'm going to clarify.
I'm NOT suggesting there should NOT be limiters [somewhere] in line for an IEM mix. I believe there should always be at LEAST one - no matter the type! I have that. I'm comfortable with it. However, the NEED may be based on the situation.

I doubt I would EVER trust someone to mix my IEM's without multiple limiters in the chain. I've NEVER had someone do that and I'm not sure how I would react if required to do so!
I'm not a "pro" musician, just a member of a successful local band who has their own IEM rig that is used at EVERY gig we have.. be that private, club or festival.
I think I'd opt for a wedge before trusting some random dude/gal at FOH or stage side to run my IEM mix without ME knowing the signal chain - and there being limiters in the equation somewhere.
Everything from gain staging the mix to content would be up for grabs!
Right now, I have full control of my mix content and the volume control on my receiver and have had that since starting on IEM's.

Since you said others mix your IEM - I totally agree with your position.. however, it's NOT my situation and nor is it with most pro bands with their own guys mixing IEM's at each show!
YMMV

 

[JohnSmith2]

I was just going to ask if you can use the network in wireless work bench to use frequency management between wireless devices or do you still have to manually input the frequencies?

my mi-58 only has a single Ethernet port dedicated to Dante protocol communication - it does not have another Ethernet port (unlike the lectrosonics or shure gear that I've worked with)

the Dante port in my use is ONLY for the Dante protocol - not for any other use, frequency control or otherwise. I don't even run a router or dhcp server on my Dante network.

there are a pair of RJ-11 ports that the manual describes as "ACT-BUS networking ports for MES-100 WebMote Bridge" which I assume is some kind of proprietary physical protocol, but I have no personal experience with it.

I personally manually set frequencies on the mi-58, but in my personal use/environment my (wireless) needs are not complex and once set I don't change change them very much, if at all. It's a weird unicorn of a unit like that for me personally in that it's got Dante and sounds great, both of which I need, but doesn't have the remote configuration, which I don't, and therefore costs less than the more advanced units.

as usual - entirely possible I'm missing something!

 

[Windreaper]

I don't read it as saying that at all.. It simply means that "pros" have "pros" mixing their IEM's and those "pros" don't talk about needing limiters in their system.

I think you're missing the point of the commentary, and splitting hairs, so lets back up.
I'm going to clarify.
I'm NOT suggesting there should NOT be limiters [somewhere] in line for an IEM mix. I believe there should always be at LEAST one - no matter the type! I have that. I'm comfortable with it. However, the NEED may be based on the situation.

I doubt I would EVER trust someone to mix my IEM's without multiple limiters in the chain. I've NEVER had someone do that and I'm not sure how I would react if required to do so!
I'm not a "pro" musician, just a member of a successful local band who has their own IEM rig that is used at EVERY gig we have.. be that private, club or festival.
I think I'd opt for a wedge before trusting some random dude/gal at FOH or stage side to run my IEM mix without ME knowing the signal chain - and there being limiters in the equation somewhere.
Everything from gain staging the mix to content would be up for grabs!
Right now, I have full control of my mix content and the volume control on my receiver and have had that since starting on IEM's.

Since you said others mix your IEM - I totally agree with your position.. however, it's NOT my situation and nor is it with most pro bands with their own guys mixing IEM's at each show!
YMMV

I'm sorry, wasn't my intention to pick a fight with you, and you obviously know what you're doing. I was referring to the reply you got from InEarGear. Sure, he is allowed to express his personal opinion, but name-dropping professional productions, who assumedly know what they're doing, know what they're buying, and never make mistakes, to justify the lack of a safety feature felt a little irresponsible, that's all.

For background, I played keys in a mid-level band in the 2000s, and worked as a freelance tech for a local sound provider, and there were also varying levels of professionalism to be seen, regardless of the size of production. Mistakes will always happen!

I was hired as a playback op for a music video shoot for one of the biggest metal bands in EU. On location in a difficult-to-access area, so everything was run off generators. Well, for starters, the generators meant for lighting equipment didn't have inverters, and those were the nice ones. The less-nice ones were probably pulled from some construction site. I'm assuming they were frantically trying to get better ones, as the producer called me before 5am next morning asking "where are the generators", even though it wasn't anywhere near my area of responsibility.

The equipment had to be stored on site overnight, and in the morning the generator reserved for PA no longer functioned. No spares. Whenever we were shooting, I had to borrow the generator used for catering and heating the artist's tent. I was also provided about twice as many active speakers as I could feasibly run off one generator, but the stack sure looked nice.

To top it off, there was apparently some kind of miscommunication regarding getting a permission to shoot on the location in first place. IIRC, the land owner showed up on the site, and luckily gave the permission, but it's my understanding he could've ended the shoot right there had he felt like it.

And that's just off the top of my head. Did an another similar gig for an Eurovision winner, and the production had forgotten to rent the playback equipment. Also, had a close call with one actor and pyrotechnics. Once, I got a desk with broken metering for an end-of-school arena event.

It's the combination of tight schedules, long days, lack of sleep (I'd sleep maybe 4-5 hours a night during a multi-day gig), and failure to follow safety protocols, that makes even experienced professionals make mistakes. And I was a 20-something way out of my depth at the time. Maybe it's better these days, wherever you are, and if you have a stable crew, but this is just my experience operating in my corner of the world.

I haven't operated on that level in over a decade. The people I play with these days are good, experienced musicians, but roughly half don't know how the equipment works, don't understand the risks, can't operate a mixer of any kind (and request a bit of everything in their mix), and often attach their packs where there is a risk of bumping the volume knob or the pack falling off (one drummer has already dropped his pack once during a show). Probably have their mix way too loud in their ears too.

Knowing that, eventually, someone, somewhere is going to make a mistake, especially in situations where there are multiple contractors and providers involved, and having witnessed the state of disrepair of equipment even in supposedly professional productions, I would always err on the side of caution where matters of safety are concerned.

 

[Windreaper]

Also, to get the thread back on track. Below is a very good video on mixing monitors (where the magic of IEMs happens). The engineer (who mixes monitors for Toto, In Flames, Korn etc.) does a very good job explaining his approach.

I especially like his emphasis on proper gain structure, getting the source right, using minimal processing, and taking advantage of the stereo field. Also liked his preference for capturing the entire drum kit with the overheads (which does require placing them a bit higher, which might be a problem depending on the room). Need a consistent source for consistent results, consider bringing your own mics.

Another good tip was capturing a multi-track recording of a session, and using that to really polish the monitor mixes, quite a few digital mixers can do this natively.

 

[songwriter21]

Our soundguy (lucky enough to have a dedicated one), uses a tablet for his Midas X32 console. We have the coordinating app on our phones, and do our own stereo mixes. He gives us two XLRs, which enough sound people won't do (double for everyone), and runs them to his board. We can all pan every instrument and track however we want. I have my phone on a holder attached to a mic stand, so it's uber-convenient. Technology can be wonderful at times.

 

[Wasnex]

I
When talking to Mike at ineargear about my concerns of there being no limiter - before buying the Mipro 909 - he said (see below) that he's built systems for pro touring bands without limiters and limiters are not even mentioned. I have one set on the output buss for my IEM's but not aware of it being triggered - since I've been using the 909.

"Limiters are disappearing because no one uses them enough to warrant the expense. I turned mine off 20 years ago. Muddied up the sound. Also, someone drops a mic, you don't have that mic pegged at 10 in your ears.
It was a good selling tool when this stuff all started. I sell IEM to 38 Special, Steve Winwood, Backman Turner, I could go on for several more lines. The word limiter NEVER comes up."

YMMV

IMHO Mike may not know what he is talking about. Just because a limiter is not sold with the IEM system does not mean limiters are not used.

His logic is BS IMHO and his advice is irresponsible. Everyone has accidents, even pros. If you are using a wide band limiter, it should be adjusted so it almost never hits the threshold during normal performance. It only kicks in when a huge transient occurs due to some sort of accident. So the limiter should be totally transparent during normal operation.

With a multi-band limiter like an Aphex Dominator, you can push the nominal signal slightly into the threshold of each band. The Dominator breaks the signal down into three frequency ranges and each band has it's own threshold. The provides way more protection and is still relatively transparent. If the signal is not transparent enough, raise the thresholds. This reduces protection a bit but increases transparency. Unfortunately (AFAIK), no one is making rack based multi-band limiters any more. If I built an IEM rack for myself, I would hunt down a good clean used Dominator or DBX IEM.

Most of the systems I helped spec'ed used rack-based limiters that were separate from the IEM systems. Specifically, we used Aphex Dominators or DBX IEM processors on almost every system I helped design. I would guess that most pro level acts are digital at this point. Most digital consoles have the ability to assign limiters to the output buses. The last system I was involved with used the limiters on the board (Yamaha LS9/32). The belt packs also had adjustable limiters. So each person had two limiters in their signal path.