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Steve Albini explains why he hates Steely Dan
- Thread starter nomaj
- Start date
That's preference though, not awareness. I'd argue that record sales are the best possible indication of awareness. Also, and no offense intended, your personal network isn't a suitable indicator of awareness in the UK overall. Nor would mine be.
If you have a turntable, I could send you a record or 2. Just hollar at me.
Certain genres grew up as a response to what some folks would call overblown production values. And I would tend to agree that there are plenty of examples of overblown from the mid to late 70's and early 80's, which was a period where record companies were trying to figure out how to squeeze a profitable formula out of what was getting a lot of attention at that time - progressive rock and its slightly heavier offshoots. Bands were coming out which - if you want to talk about overblown production with not so much to say on a musical level, fit that mold much more readily than any bands that have been mentioned in this thread.
There were a lot of wannabee bands out there trying to sound like somebody else and then you also had a whole bunch of soft-rock studio bands like Toto and Little River Band crafting multi-layered music that your mom would love- grunge and punk were all about holding a match to that and trying for something more raw that anyone could play or do, but particularly something that your mom would hate. It was taking rock back to its roots.
But there's a HUGE difference between meticulous, clean production values and overproduced, dull and lifeless music. Many people appear unable to tell the difference. Some bands get the label honestly and some bands are quite musically sophisticated and perhaps deserving of a listen by people who have a real appreciation for chords and changes that aren't simplistic. But that kind of music isn't served well by inattentive production. It just isn't.
Where I sit in terms of appreciation tends to depend on the genre and the type of music being produced. The music Fagen and Becker put out wouldn't have worked without the approach they took in producing it. Same goes with the music Albini was involved with - because it's fundamentally different music and those things call for different approaches. Is one better than the other? For me it depends on the mood I'm in. Generally I get bored fast so jazzier changes keep me entertained for a few more minutes, but if I want to dance around the living room I'm good with the simple stuff.
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I have a sister in law who was a punk rock player back in the day ... she loved Steely Dan.
They've had some pretty savage and insane, and clever, lyrics. And good grooves. If it took them a lot of takes to get there, what should I care? No skin off my nose. All roads lead to Rome, artistically speaking.
If Albini's piece was aiming to be humorous ... meh, pretty flat. If he's serious ... well, I'll take Steely Dan over Shellac every time.
That's me, but it's also a whole lot of other people. Albini's free to say what he pleases. Still, as someone once said, "Shut up and play yer guitar."
But SD are too.smooth, soft, and overproduced...
They've had some pretty savage and insane, and clever, lyrics. And good grooves. If it took them a lot of takes to get there, what should I care? No skin off my nose. All roads lead to Rome, artistically speaking.
If Albini's piece was aiming to be humorous ... meh, pretty flat. If he's serious ... well, I'll take Steely Dan over Shellac every time.
That's me, but it's also a whole lot of other people. Albini's free to say what he pleases. Still, as someone once said, "Shut up and play yer guitar."
But SD are too.smooth, soft, and overproduced...
Here's the thing. We're just talking about two different musical philosophies. Most of us are fans one way or the other.
SD: We're auteurs making art. Part of how we make art is that we curate performances by the best studio pros. The work of other musicians is part of our art. We give them credit, but we deserve credit as well for picking the best parts and putting them together.
A: Musicians are craftspeople making music on their instruments. They do it every day in live surroundings. My job is also a craft, which is to capture their performances with the best fidelity possible to what they do every day.
A: Steely Dan doesn't sound much like people in a specific place playing music together. It sounds like the air is sucked out of the room.
SD: We like it dry. It helps us capture a continuity of performance over long periods of time spent recording. Also, the listener can hear the tasty licks more clearly.
SD: We know everything about chord voicings, and Larry Carlton knows even more. Put a chart in front of Steve Albini. That'll shut him up. Sure we play blues. Duke Ellington played blues too.
A: For all their musical knowledge, Steely Dan aren't really getting to the heart of the matter, and they're simplifying the acoustics so their audience can hear their musicians' fancy parts. Blues is Fred McDowell or RL Burnside, and the sound of the slide on his guitar strings, or Buddy Guy, Little Walter, whoever. Steely Dan says they're playing blues, but they refuse to get to the point.
I can mic a drum set or guitar so you feel like you're freakin' inside it! Steely Dan is content to skate along the surface sonically.
SD: It's Steve who's content to skate along the surface. He's content with haphazard building blocks of chords and melodies, we're getting into the musical DNA with all kinds of stuff.
This could go on endlessly. It's not like the Albini aesthetic is brand new. It's always been around. Record producers aren't always George Martin. Producers, like the rest of us, tend to be good at one aspect of making music. There are producers who are really good with vocalists. There are producers who drop by from time to time to make sure the product is good. There are producers who are great with charts and theory and can help an artist write a great bridge. There are producers who consider themselves glorified engineers.
One thing that Steely Dan and Albini have in common is that they can dish it out, and they can also take it. Neither of them seem particularly concerned with making friends.
SD: We're auteurs making art. Part of how we make art is that we curate performances by the best studio pros. The work of other musicians is part of our art. We give them credit, but we deserve credit as well for picking the best parts and putting them together.
A: Musicians are craftspeople making music on their instruments. They do it every day in live surroundings. My job is also a craft, which is to capture their performances with the best fidelity possible to what they do every day.
A: Steely Dan doesn't sound much like people in a specific place playing music together. It sounds like the air is sucked out of the room.
SD: We like it dry. It helps us capture a continuity of performance over long periods of time spent recording. Also, the listener can hear the tasty licks more clearly.
SD: We know everything about chord voicings, and Larry Carlton knows even more. Put a chart in front of Steve Albini. That'll shut him up. Sure we play blues. Duke Ellington played blues too.
A: For all their musical knowledge, Steely Dan aren't really getting to the heart of the matter, and they're simplifying the acoustics so their audience can hear their musicians' fancy parts. Blues is Fred McDowell or RL Burnside, and the sound of the slide on his guitar strings, or Buddy Guy, Little Walter, whoever. Steely Dan says they're playing blues, but they refuse to get to the point.
I can mic a drum set or guitar so you feel like you're freakin' inside it! Steely Dan is content to skate along the surface sonically.
SD: It's Steve who's content to skate along the surface. He's content with haphazard building blocks of chords and melodies, we're getting into the musical DNA with all kinds of stuff.
This could go on endlessly. It's not like the Albini aesthetic is brand new. It's always been around. Record producers aren't always George Martin. Producers, like the rest of us, tend to be good at one aspect of making music. There are producers who are really good with vocalists. There are producers who drop by from time to time to make sure the product is good. There are producers who are great with charts and theory and can help an artist write a great bridge. There are producers who consider themselves glorified engineers.
One thing that Steely Dan and Albini have in common is that they can dish it out, and they can also take it. Neither of them seem particularly concerned with making friends.
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It's gonna take more than that to get me to hate that song. Sorry.
I’ve been in the biz for a long time. Can I acknowledge that they’re talented players? Sure. But I don’t like their music and have never once listened to them for pleasure. I can identify more songs/albums that Albini’s worked on than SD songs/albums, but that’s just the world my brain operates in.
All that being said, I’m glad we live in a world where both exist.
Interesting example, I've never heard it before but it sounds identical to every SD song I've heard. That's not necess. a fault if you like it..., at this point I Love the singing, a classic stylist, Great work.
On the other hand, I don't care for the guitar solos and I hate the clever verse turnaround where it goes up whole tones. I guess that's their signature on there. Other than the too clever tacked-on bit it sounds like a Steven Stills song that would have been better with Stills on guitars. The bass playing is marvelous and sounds good too.
On a trip to Maine listening to the golden oldies station, it would be a solid 8. If they played Where Is My Mind I'd know I drifted into the college radio station in central Maine. But I recently heard Where Is My Mind mutated (copied but changed) on a TV commercial. I think that's a measure of success.
Yes, I know. Maybe sounded better to them in the song as "Ora-gone". Or maybe that's how the character pronounces it. Or maybe they just had that wrong. Minor matter, from my point of view. But ... that's what you take from it?
Yes, I know. Maybe sounded better to them in the song as "Ora-gone". Or maybe that's how the character pronounces it. Or maybe they just had that wrong. Minor matter, from my point of view. But ... that's what you take from it?
No one whose old man is there would ever pronounce it that way. It's like when Pure Prairie League sang about getting a ticket on a freight train. You don't need a ticket for that, poseur, that's the whole point! But digress.
Steely Dan has always felt really tedious to me. I never found their music particularly enjoyable. The people who always tried to get me to enjoy them mostly give off "I'm an intellectual because I understand Steely Dan" vibes, and it always really bothered me.
James Gandolfini singing a couple of lines of Dirty Work in one episode of Sopranos was pretty cool, though.
James Gandolfini singing a couple of lines of Dirty Work in one episode of Sopranos was pretty cool, though.
Some of these responses here make me laugh, because it's clear different people have very different ears when it comes to appreciating music. And again, that's fine, because we're all different. But to say that Don't Take Me Alive is the same as Aja or Home at Last or, I don't know, pick any other random song from them, says something to me about the listener, which is that they have a very different head when it comes to music than I do.That sounds like a Steven Stills vehicle to you??? Yeow.
Again, that character is waaay out there, and clearly is at odds with his old man. Not hard to imagine him deliberately saying the name in a way that grates against the sensibilities of many Oregonians. Or not. Again, maybe Fagin just has it wrong. So, big deal. Let's quibble, eh?
Some people will go very far to find a reason to hate what's popular to hate.Again, that character is waaay out there, and clearly is at odds with his old man. Not hard to imagine him deliberately saying the name in a way that grates against the sensibilities of many Oregonians. Or not. Again, maybe Fagin just has it wrong. So, big deal. Let's quibble, eh?
