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String Gauge as it applies to Tension?
- Thread starter Mike Brueske
- Start date
You should hear it with a low D! (wearing stringjoy nickel wound 55-110) My only issue with that bass is how it changes with the weather. Wish I had a luthier in the neighborhood.
MASS!!! It isn't construction, it isn't make, model, gauge, or style. It is MASS!!! String Mass determines string tension, meaning pulling strength. Several manufacturers publish their tension specs. But again this is ONLY the pulling tension.
Now, the rest of these factors: construction (including round v hex core), proportion (meaning how thick the core compared to the windings), material (solid nickel will have more mass compared to NPS compared to stainless) and other factors for make and style for the same gauge, will determine feel, and how "flexible" the string feels.
BUT NOT TENSION!!! Only MASS determines tension.
Oh - BTW - OP - please post a picture of your Rickenbacker.
Now, the rest of these factors: construction (including round v hex core), proportion (meaning how thick the core compared to the windings), material (solid nickel will have more mass compared to NPS compared to stainless) and other factors for make and style for the same gauge, will determine feel, and how "flexible" the string feels.
BUT NOT TENSION!!! Only MASS determines tension.
Oh - BTW - OP - please post a picture of your Rickenbacker.
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Apart from gauge there's density. Density depends on materials and construction. For example a flatwound string is more dense than its roundwound equivalent. The densities of steel, nickel, chrome and stainless steel are different.
D
The perceived stiffness will depend on a number of things:
1) Hex core strings are generally stiffer than round core strings.
2) Thicker core strings are generally stiffer than thinner core strings.
3) Flats are generally stiffer than rounds (with pressurewounds/groundwounds in-between).
4) Heavier gauge strings are generally stiffer than lighter gauge strings.
5) Pure nickel strings are generally stiffer than steel or nickel plated steel.
This of course means that although heavier gauge strings are usually stiffer than lighter gauge strings, this will also depend on a number of other factors. Any predictions about the perceived tension based on gauges alone can only be 100% accurate when comparing different gauges of the exact same type of strings. The actual perceived stiffness will depend on a combination of 1), 2), 3), 4) and 5) as described above.
If you have changed to a lighter gauge of the EXACT same type of strings, something must have happened with the setup. This can certainly make strings feel different. So I guess that's sort of number 6): The setup. A bass will always need a full setup when changing to a different type of strings, or different gauges.
1) Hex core strings are generally stiffer than round core strings.
2) Thicker core strings are generally stiffer than thinner core strings.
3) Flats are generally stiffer than rounds (with pressurewounds/groundwounds in-between).
4) Heavier gauge strings are generally stiffer than lighter gauge strings.
5) Pure nickel strings are generally stiffer than steel or nickel plated steel.
This of course means that although heavier gauge strings are usually stiffer than lighter gauge strings, this will also depend on a number of other factors. Any predictions about the perceived tension based on gauges alone can only be 100% accurate when comparing different gauges of the exact same type of strings. The actual perceived stiffness will depend on a combination of 1), 2), 3), 4) and 5) as described above.
If you have changed to a lighter gauge of the EXACT same type of strings, something must have happened with the setup. This can certainly make strings feel different. So I guess that's sort of number 6): The setup. A bass will always need a full setup when changing to a different type of strings, or different gauges.
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String tension isn't everything. It's actually everything only for one purpose: adjusting action when changing strings.
To their credit, D'Addario publishes a tension chart for their strings:
The preface has a formula how string tension can be calculated for a given pitch. It doesn't use gauge but density per unit length (they cite unit weight, which is another word for specific weight, and is the product of density and gravity acceleration).
If you use strings from the same manufacturer, within the same line of products, smaller gauge means less tension for the same pitch, unless the manufacturer actually switches to a different winding or a different core above some gauge.
From my experience, you need to be aware of three things:
1. You have to adjust the truss rod when you switch strings. This should be the primary skill to teach guitar players but nobody bothers. And then people have problems playing and they don't know why. Or they misattribute good setup to a specific brand of strings, string type or string gauge. Check out this page:
brokeassguitars.com
2. Unlike on a guitar, thinner, lower gauge strings are not necessarily easier to play. The tension is lower, but thinner strings cut into your finger more and cause discomfort (at least until you develop proper callouses).
Lower tension strings are easier to bend, but it comes with a downside: When you push on them, they change their pitch more. Fretting a string adds tension to it. The resulting higher tension raises the pitch of the string. You push harder on a higher tension string, but it's not proportional, so the effect is smaller with heavier strings.
3. Flatwound strings are much stiffer than their gauge alone suggests. In fact, even though they have a similar density and thus tension, unlike roundwound strings, there are no gaps in the construction, they are essentially solid all the way to the core. It makes them much stiffer than ordinary roundwound strings which have much more give.
I think I know what you're after. I prefer playing the guitar with string sets starting with .009 (for high E), I like .008 for their ease of play and for precision exercises, I tried .007 and it's okay, though it breaks easily. Going heavier, I don't like .010 because they're already hard and I never tried heavier strings (even though sets up to .014 exist).
But when it comes to bass, I experimented with a .035 string set and I was surprised that it was not easier to play than .045. My current main set is a .058 nylon tapewound, which is obviously thick, but it's much lower tension than even that .035 set, but the strings are pleasantly thick, so they don't cut into fingers at all.
If you're looking for a light string set that's easy and fun to play, I can't recommend nylon tapewounds enough. My particular set is a Fender 58 Black Nylon Tapewound (product reference: 9120M).
One thing you need to be aware of: Their tension is much, much, lower, and I was very concerned when adjusting the truss rod, since I couldn't believe it needs to go that far.
I'm surprised about the hex core vs. round core strings. I agree if you're comparing strings with the same density per unit length, but for the same gauge, I believe a roundcore string will be heavier, higher tension and should be stiffer. Granted, I don't have much experience with round cores, but from what I read, they should be stiffer than hex core strings.
To their credit, D'Addario publishes a tension chart for their strings:
The preface has a formula how string tension can be calculated for a given pitch. It doesn't use gauge but density per unit length (they cite unit weight, which is another word for specific weight, and is the product of density and gravity acceleration).
If you use strings from the same manufacturer, within the same line of products, smaller gauge means less tension for the same pitch, unless the manufacturer actually switches to a different winding or a different core above some gauge.
From my experience, you need to be aware of three things:
1. You have to adjust the truss rod when you switch strings. This should be the primary skill to teach guitar players but nobody bothers. And then people have problems playing and they don't know why. Or they misattribute good setup to a specific brand of strings, string type or string gauge. Check out this page:
Start Here | Broke-Ass Guitars
brokeassguitars.com
Lower tension strings are easier to bend, but it comes with a downside: When you push on them, they change their pitch more. Fretting a string adds tension to it. The resulting higher tension raises the pitch of the string. You push harder on a higher tension string, but it's not proportional, so the effect is smaller with heavier strings.
3. Flatwound strings are much stiffer than their gauge alone suggests. In fact, even though they have a similar density and thus tension, unlike roundwound strings, there are no gaps in the construction, they are essentially solid all the way to the core. It makes them much stiffer than ordinary roundwound strings which have much more give.
I think I know what you're after. I prefer playing the guitar with string sets starting with .009 (for high E), I like .008 for their ease of play and for precision exercises, I tried .007 and it's okay, though it breaks easily. Going heavier, I don't like .010 because they're already hard and I never tried heavier strings (even though sets up to .014 exist).
But when it comes to bass, I experimented with a .035 string set and I was surprised that it was not easier to play than .045. My current main set is a .058 nylon tapewound, which is obviously thick, but it's much lower tension than even that .035 set, but the strings are pleasantly thick, so they don't cut into fingers at all.
If you're looking for a light string set that's easy and fun to play, I can't recommend nylon tapewounds enough. My particular set is a Fender 58 Black Nylon Tapewound (product reference: 9120M).
One thing you need to be aware of: Their tension is much, much, lower, and I was very concerned when adjusting the truss rod, since I couldn't believe it needs to go that far.
One caveat about the list: Every point is true if you're comparing just one variable and other variables stay the same.
I'm surprised about the hex core vs. round core strings. I agree if you're comparing strings with the same density per unit length, but for the same gauge, I believe a roundcore string will be heavier, higher tension and should be stiffer. Granted, I don't have much experience with round cores, but from what I read, they should be stiffer than hex core strings.
D
Good point. I could have added "with everything else being equal" and removed "generally" from each point 1)-5). That would probably have been more precise. But I think most people will get the idea.String tension isn't everything. It's actually everything only for one purpose: adjusting action when changing strings.
To their credit, D'Addario publishes a tension chart for their strings:
The preface has a formula how string tension can be calculated for a given pitch. It doesn't use gauge but density per unit length (they cite unit weight, which is another word for specific weight, and is the product of density and gravity acceleration).
If you use strings from the same manufacturer, within the same line of products, smaller gauge means less tension for the same pitch, unless the manufacturer actually switches to a different winding or a different core above some gauge.
From my experience, you need to be aware of three things:
1. You have to adjust the truss rod when you switch strings. This should be the primary skill to teach guitar players but nobody bothers. And then people have problems playing and they don't know why. Or they misattribute good setup to a specific brand of strings, string type or string gauge. Check out this page:
2. Unlike on a guitar, thinner, lower gauge strings are not necessarily easier to play. The tension is lower, but thinner strings cut into your finger more and cause discomfort (at least until you develop proper callouses).Start Here | Broke-Ass Guitars
Lower tension strings are easier to bend, but it comes with a downside: When you push on them, they change their pitch more. Fretting a string adds tension to it. The resulting higher tension raises the pitch of the string. You push harder on a higher tension string, but it's not proportional, so the effect is smaller with heavier strings.
3. Flatwound strings are much stiffer than their gauge alone suggests. In fact, even though they have a similar density and thus tension, unlike roundwound strings, there are no gaps in the construction, they are essentially solid all the way to the core. It makes them much stiffer than ordinary roundwound strings which have much more give.
I think I know what you're after. I prefer playing the guitar with string sets starting with .009 (for high E), I like .008 for their ease of play and for precision exercises, I tried .007 and it's okay, though it breaks easily. Going heavier, I don't like .010 because they're already hard and I never tried heavier strings (even though sets up to .014 exist).
But when it comes to bass, I experimented with a .035 string set and I was surprised that it was not easier to play than .045. My current main set is a .058 nylon tapewound, which is obviously thick, but it's much lower tension than even that .035 set, but the strings are pleasantly thick, so they don't cut into fingers at all.
If you're looking for a light string set that's easy and fun to play, I can't recommend nylon tapewounds enough. My particular set is a Fender 58 Black Nylon Tapewound (product reference: 9120M).
One thing you need to be aware of: Their tension is much, much, lower, and I was very concerned when adjusting the truss rod, since I couldn't believe it needs to go that far.
One caveat about the list: Every point is true if you're comparing just one variable and other variables stay the same.
I'm surprised about the hex core vs. round core strings. I agree if you're comparing strings with the same density per unit length, but for the same gauge, I believe a roundcore string will be heavier, higher tension and should be stiffer. Granted, I don't have much experience with round cores, but from what I read, they should be stiffer than hex core strings.
Round core strings definitely have a more supple feel than hex core (with everything else being equal
, or at least close to equal).The only hex core stings I've ever tried that had a somewhat similar supple feel as round core strings (when comparing the same gauges) are Dunlop Superbrights. Presumably because they have a very thin hex core.
Tapewounds have a very supple feel because they are really VERY light gauge roundwounds (or in rare cases flats) under the nylon wrapping. I'm not sure what the exact gauges used in a typical set of tapewounds are, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're as light as 35-90, or something like that, even though the listed gauges (including the nylon) are much higher.
Also, be careful not to get stiffness and tension mixed up. They're different things.
You should be feeling less tension with a lighter gauge string. I went with the Rush/Yes stainless rounds Rotosound 66 strings in a medium guage .45. On all my other basses I use a lighter guage DR Fatbeams. The thing I noticed with my slightly shorter scale Rick is that the .45s had less tension then my 34" scale basses. Instrument variations like the shorter scale of a Rick will also change the response of any given string.
Having said that, different brands and strings within the same brand will have different string tensions if using the same guage and bass to compare. I find DR strings to have a high tension then other brands in the same guage. That's why I use them in a lighter guage. They aren't so slinky like other brands. The Thomastik jazz rounds I use on my fretless are .43 guage but feel slinkier then strings with a lighter guage. It's a pain in the butt but nice when you find the brands and guages that work for you.
Also, if you aren't getting a setup when changing string guages that can result in general wonkiness.
Having said that, different brands and strings within the same brand will have different string tensions if using the same guage and bass to compare. I find DR strings to have a high tension then other brands in the same guage. That's why I use them in a lighter guage. They aren't so slinky like other brands. The Thomastik jazz rounds I use on my fretless are .43 guage but feel slinkier then strings with a lighter guage. It's a pain in the butt but nice when you find the brands and guages that work for you.
Also, if you aren't getting a setup when changing string guages that can result in general wonkiness.
String tension is calculated using the scale length, tuned pitch, and unit weight (UW) of the string.
Since you're comparing strings on the same bass, the scale length is the same.
You're also tuning the same each time, so tuned pitch would be the same.
The difference is unit weight: how much mass per unit length does the string have?
UW and gauge are typically correlated - a .105"D'Addario XL will have a higher UW than a .045" D'Addario XL, for example.
But UW and gauge are not the same - a stainless steel .105" D'Addario ProSteel will have a different unit weight than a nickel .105" D'Addario XL.
That's because, as others have mentioned, material and construction also play into it.
The other thing you're talking about is string feel - some strings feel like steel bars and others feel like ropes.
By and large, this is related to the string's core and construction:
Thick cores are stiffer than thin cores, round cores are more flexible than hex cores, and flatwound strings are less flexible than roundwound.
Since you're comparing strings on the same bass, the scale length is the same.
You're also tuning the same each time, so tuned pitch would be the same.
The difference is unit weight: how much mass per unit length does the string have?
UW and gauge are typically correlated - a .105"D'Addario XL will have a higher UW than a .045" D'Addario XL, for example.
But UW and gauge are not the same - a stainless steel .105" D'Addario ProSteel will have a different unit weight than a nickel .105" D'Addario XL.
That's because, as others have mentioned, material and construction also play into it.
The other thing you're talking about is string feel - some strings feel like steel bars and others feel like ropes.
By and large, this is related to the string's core and construction:
Thick cores are stiffer than thin cores, round cores are more flexible than hex cores, and flatwound strings are less flexible than roundwound.
In Florida we never have issues with dryness from lack of humidity, but the AC cranking on will put it out of tune. I rarely have to make adjustments to my basses.
Correct, but the OP only mentioned gauge. Gauge does not equal mass—it is gauge and construction that determine mass, not gauge alone.
Yes. That was the point of my post. But it is more complicated than that: the metal of the wrap wire can be of different densities: pure nickel, NPS, stainless, etc. Flat ribbon wire will have less space between wraps than round wound, hence more metal in the given wrap and therefore more mass. The diameter and construction of the core wire, whether round or hex as may be spec's for a particular make and model of string, is all over the place and for hex may result in gaps between the core and the wrap, decreasing mass. Compare the tensions, for example, of similar NPS rounds from GHS, D'A, SIT, etc.: they are all over the place with tension specs due to all these variables of core geometry, core diameter, wrap diameter, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
Of two strings that have been constructed the exact same way, same materials, same type, same construction method, the thinner, lower gauge, strings will have lower tension tuned to the same note in the same octave on the the same instrument, compared to a thicker higher gauge strings.
However if you start to compare oranges to bananas, who knows?
However if you start to compare oranges to bananas, who knows?
Lighter gauge in guitar strings are absolutely more flexible as far as string bending is concerned. I've experimented with alot of bass string types and gauges for Eb std and D std tunings. Heavier strings do dropped tunings better because they are for sure higher tension, but the fatter E does have a different kind of floppy feel IMO, even though physics says it shouldn't. Light gauge bass strings are buzzy for me with relatively low action and almost flat neck, they vibrate wider at lower tension.
One company's string tension may be different from another companies tension for the same gauge string. I've found Dunlop's to be pretty soft.
