Double Bass string length

[Mike D.]

Hey everybody,
I have a bass that has a 43 3/4 inch string length. It's also an 'E-flat' neck stop. My previous bass was a 41 3/4 inch string length with an 'E-flat' neck as well.
I find the stretch of the string-length a little tiring. I talked to my luthier about this, and he said we can install a false nut and perhaps cheat a little at the bridge too. This would probably bring the neck-stop closer to 'D' which is actually not such a bad thing.
How short do you think we'll be able to get the string-length down using this method? Also, will it affect my 'nut-position reference' on the neck negatively, or will it just be a matter of adapting to a nut lower down on the neck? (I suppose I'll have to set my end-pin a little higher to compensate for the lower nut)
I was reading that the only other solution around this is my having a new (shorter) neck-grafted. This is probably way to big a job to replace an already existing/functioning neck, BUT I was wondering how much money does a neck-graft go for? Would it be worth it in the long-run instead of settling for false-nuts/pushed bridges, etc.?
I look forward to reading your comments. Thank you in advance.
Mike

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Hey everybody,
I have a bass that has a 43 3/4 inch string length. It's also an 'E-flat' neck stop. My previous bass was a 41 3/4 inch string length with an 'E-flat' neck as well.
I find the stretch of the string-length a little tiring. I talked to my luthier about this, and he said we can install a false nut and perhaps cheat a little at the bridge too. This would probably bring the neck-stop closer to 'D' which is actually not such a bad thing.
How short do you think we'll be able to get the string-length down using this method? Also, will it affect my 'nut-position reference' on the neck negatively, or will it just be a matter of adapting to a nut lower down on the neck? (I suppose I'll have to set my end-pin a little higher to compensate for the lower nut)
I was reading that the only other solution around this is my having a new (shorter) neck-grafted. This is probably way to big a job to replace an already existing/functioning neck, BUT I was wondering how much money does a neck-graft go for? Would it be worth it in the long-run instead of settling for false-nuts/pushed bridges, etc.?
I look forward to reading your comments. Thank you in advance.
Mike

That's a lot of Cheating. I think on the Bridge maybe 1/2" depending on the Top/Bar strength and the FFs position. On the False Nut, on my 44+" Storioni I think 2" is a huge cheat but can be done. Also be careful of the F# and Octave. As you move the Nut down, you move the octave further down as well.

Here's what I have done to test this in the past. Put a tiny piece of wood under the G-string like a quasi nut. Move it down till the heel is a d-neck from the Eb. Then reach for the F# and octave and see where they are. Dropping a Neck into the Bloc (aka Block cut) with some slight shoulder trim or none at all is another way of shortening the string length.

The proportion of the Octave is a big factor and not just the length. Depending on the value of the Bass, some shortening methods may be cost prohibitive.

I suggest you shoot for 42" at the shortest and make the bass playable with the false nut and the bridge cheat. Move the bridge as much as possible without hurting the top. Then make up the difference with the Nut.

I did the exact same thing with this Bass here;

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My cheat here was just under 1 1/2" total. The Bass is better proportioned now than it was before.

 

[forester]

your bass...i get a lot of instruments strung this way from new england school systems. is it comon practice?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

your bass...i get a lot of instruments strung this way from new england school systems. is it comon practice?

Three things. 1, when you use a C-Ext. like I do as well as others, that's where the E is. 2, when you don't have an Ext., it's nice to have the E in the same place for habit. 3, with the E up higher, I feel slighly more tension and a better sounding E over all.

I don't know what goes on in N.E. schools or why with this.

 

[forester]

ah ha..#3 might explain the violas trying to ring a little more out of the C string. thnx

 

[Steve Swan]

Probably heresy, but why not tune a half step low on an extra long mensure Eb neck? The new D reference point will be more in keeping with modern basses and the string length will be much more manageable with modern metal strings. Not being formally trained, I'll be interested in explanations as to why this method wouldn't work. I generally don't like the tone of an open string and try to avoid them whenever possible.

Thoughts?

 

[JoeyNaeger]

There are a lot of problems with doing that; namely having to learn to play everything a half step higher. Also, tuning in an orchestra setting would be very difficult when the oboe gives an A, and you have an Ab. Now, if you were to place a capo a half step up from the nut, then I suppose it would be workable, but at the point, you might as well get a false nut.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Steve, I think it's the string length that's the problem here. The Eb Neck is just an indication of a longer Neck as well contributing to the length problem.

My Storioni is from 44 1/4" to 44 1/2" depending on the angle of the Bridge feet cut. If tilted slightly back it's the longer of the two. I have the Bridge cheated just slightly. Because of the condition of the Top along with the position of the FFs, I am limited as to how far up I can cheat the bridge. This long Bass of mine has a D-neck and is actually a 3/4-7/8ths sized bass in comparison. It's the position on the FFs that mainly make it the length it is.

 

[Steve Swan]

I guess that I wasn't clear in what I was proposing. With the strings tunes down a half step, pretencd that first position is the nut. You'd have an effective 41" string length and a D neck if you play all closed positions. I'm thinking as a pizz player who uses a fork or an electronic tuner rather than an oboe for my A note.

Thinking like this makes sense to me because I already play my electric bass in an extreme version of this phantom nut syndrome. I use the bottom 4 strings of a flatwound 5 string set and pretend that the fifth fret is the nut. I get a nice meaty, thumpy sound with short decay that reminds me of a gut strung doublebass.

 

[CPike]

With open strings a 1/2 step lower, the overall resonance of the instrument would be out of whack. Resonance isn't really much of a concern with a slab. Overtones are also important, and open strings help certain notes in certain keys sound fuller. It's often good to play an open note closed on the next string, but it's also appropriate to play it open sometimes too, but the real difficulty would come when you try to finger fast passages that use open strings - you would have to adjust and shift more. And yeah tuning in a symphony would suck, lol.

Chris

 

[Matthew Tucker]

With open strings a 1/2 step lower, the overall resonance of the instrument would be out of whack.

Well, it might also improve the tone ... depends on the bass really!

The good thing about doing non-destructive things like a capo or temp nut or cheating the bridge is that you can undo them if you don't like 'em.

If you do like them, you can decide what it's worth to you to do the work proper-like.

 

[Martin Sheridan]

I've cut as much as two inches out of a neck once. Cut it on the diagonal, reglued it, put a hard maple insert in the neck on the fingerboard side, relued fingerboard etc and all was well.

I had another bass like that and was going to reduce the neck, but a guy the size of a refridgerator bought it and thought it was fine the way it was.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I've cut as much as two inches out of a neck once. Cut it on the diagonal, reglued it, put a hard maple insert in the neck on the fingerboard side, relued fingerboard etc and all was well.

I had another bass like that and was going to reduce the neck, but a guy the size of a refrigerator bought it and thought it was fine the way it was.

Refrigerators? I have a few customers like that as well. One is a NFL guy, Super Bowl Ring and all. Two others were NBA players and one is an ATF Agent. The problem is that they all play the Electric Bass (BG).

No help there, sorry...

 

[simandlesque]

Refrigerators? I have a few customers like that as well. One is a NFL guy, Super Bowl Ring and all. Two others were NBA players and one is an ATF Agent. The problem is that they all play the Electric Bass (BG).

No help there, sorry...

Are you talking about William Perry?

Bear Down, Chicago Bears!

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Are you talking about William Perry?

Bear Down, Chicago Bears!

No, I was referring to Invalid Link Removed;

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[wks52]

I have a similar problem with my bass. It too has a 110cm(44") string length. The difference is it has a D neck rather than Eb. As a result I can't really shorten the string at the nut or it will push all the notes too high up the neck.

This might sound liek a silly question, but would it be possible and feasible to recut f holes higher up the table? I say this because I have experimented a bit with the bridge position on my bass. I even set it really high at one point just to see what it was like.

I've attached a few photos of my bridge in the squeamishy high position. In this position the string lenght was 107cm (42") and the bass played like dream!

I didn't leave it there for long and I've since put it back to where it should be.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I've attached a few photos of my bridge in the squeamishy high position. In this position the string lenght was 107cm (42") and the bass played like dream!

That seems pretty radical, but you should talk with a luthier and find out how far up you can safely go. The soundpost will probably have to follow the bridge upwards. I have the bridge up 1/2" on my bass, no problem. I imagine the way the top was graduated will determine if it can support the bridge in a higher position.

Maybe you can cheat the bridge up and add an extended nut. Maybe some wood could be taken off the heel for a more accurate D or Eb there.

 

[Martin Sheridan]

I once saw an 18th century Italian violin with the fs filled and recut. It could be done, but it would be easier to reduce the neck length and learn to play without the D. I sold one of my basses a couple of years ago to an Indianapolis bassist who has an Italian bass with an E neck!

Ken,
A lot of electric basses would be improved with a couple of inches removed from the neck, or perhaps with the necks remvoved period.
sorry

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

I have a similar problem with my bass. It too has a 110cm(44") string length. The difference is it has a D neck rather than Eb. As a result I can't really shorten the string at the nut or it will push all the notes too high up the neck.

This might sound like a silly question, but would it be possible and feasible to recut f holes higher up the table? I say this because I have experimented a bit with the bridge position on my bass. I even set it really high at one point just to see what it was like.

I've attached a few photos of my bridge in the squeamishly high position. In this position the string length was 107cm (42") and the bass played like dream!

I didn't leave it there for long and I've since put it back to where it should be.

My Bass here with the Bridge centered and tilted properly is 44 1/2". I have it slightly cheated forwarded and the Bridge top a tad forward rather then tilted to the Tailpiece and have it to 44". Because of the Top condition currently, the FFs sizes and positioning close together, I can't move it much more.

See here for reference;
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The pics were taken when I first got the Bass over a year ago and may be a hair forward now but at 44". The position in the Pics are 44 1/4" and played a few concerts like that including the Solo in the Pulcinella suite a few days after I bought the Bass.

On your Bass or any Bass, the Bassbar under it as well as sound post position is very important when moving the bridge. I don't see a problem how you have it and moving the F-notches are purely cosmetic at this point.

See a good Luthier and discuss it with him. My Bass is also a D-neck and I have the same problem and worse. The normal length fingerboard only goes up to a G!

 

[robobass]

Probably heresy, but why not tune a half step low on an extra long mensure Eb neck? The new D reference point will be more in keeping with modern basses and the string length will be much more manageable with modern metal strings. Not being formally trained, I'll be interested in explanations as to why this method wouldn't work. I generally don't like the tone of an open string and try to avoid them whenever possible.

Thoughts?

Not a totally stupid idea. It might make the bass sound really good. When I was playing Eudoxas I would occassionally pick up the bass and find it had lost like a minor 3rd overnight, but was really fun to play that way! Also, it's totally logical that a longer string should be tuned lower.

Totally impractical for orchestra though, as others said. We orchestra players rely on our open strings to get through the fast stuff. We've practiced the hard parts our whole lives, and just couldn't adapt to having to create completely new fingerings for every piece. Even setting aside the standard repertoire, we need to be able to prepare a lot of new or rarely played music on short notice, and so our sightreading skills can't be hindered by having new open strings!

But, if you tuned down a half step and made up a removable capo to bring it to EADG, you might just get away with it. The scale length with the capo on would be nice and short. It would of course push the octave up really high, but I don't think this bass was purchased for playing Bottesini.

On the downside, I feel like a bass wants to know what tuning it's in, and a bass that is always kept perfectly tuned in EADG sort of "learns" the pitches that are played on it, and reinforces them. Basses aren't very smart - best to avoid confusing them. And switching between two entirely different open string configurations is definitely asking alot!

Anyway, as you said, this would cost almost nothing to try, and could be undone in seconds. I wouldn't have bought this bass, but if I had it, I think I would try your idea. If I got into the Baroque scene, I wouldn't even have to retune. Just pop off the capo! Now, to adjust my finger spacing so quickly?
Robobass