String Tension and Effect on Tone

[Twice19]

I have two of the same P bass, and they don't sound similar at all. One is setup with .015 neck relief with moderate action. The other is set up with .005 neck relief with a little bit higher action. The former has more midrange, the latter has more of a scooped tone. With the tone all the way up it sounds very bright, and with the tone all the way down it sounds fat, but that little bit of brightness prevents it from sounding muffled, a big plus.
The other, with the tone down, does sound muffled, but with the tone up it has that ideal woody character, almost reminiscent of an upright.

Do you think the difference is in the setup? or the variance in wood, and pickups?

Thanks

 

[Twice19]

With the bass with more relief the string tensions feels a bit looser, and the tone on the open strings is clean.

The bass with less relief - the string tension feels a bit tighter, and the open notes ring has a bit a phasiness

 

[Riff Ranger]

Same gauge, construction, age of strings on both? If they’re very similar P basses with similar electronics and strings, I suspect you’re hearing the difference in setup. First thing I do when an instrument of mine sounds or feels “off” is check the setup. Just had to do this with most of them as autumn dropped like a curtain here in Bigfoot Country and the humidity returned overnight.

 

[AEVAREX]

If they are the same strings on both and in the same tuning the string tension should be the same. You mention "phasiness" which makes me think you should check for a twisted string or pickup too close.

 

[Riff Ranger]

If they are the same strings on both and in the same tuning the string tension should be the same. You mention "phasiness" which makes me think you should check for a twisted string or pickup too close.

Good points, though I still maintain that differing setups can noticeably impact feel (if not actual tension) and sound.

 

[Twice19]

Good points, though I still maintain that differing setups can noticeably impact feel (if not actual tension) and sound.

thats how it feels to me. The bass with more neck relief- perhaps makes the string length a little less. Thats how it feels, but is that what's really going on?

 

[Twice19]

Same gauge, construction, age of strings on both? If they’re very similar P basses with similar electronics and strings, I suspect you’re hearing the difference in setup. First thing I do when an instrument of mine sounds or feels “off” is check the setup. Just had to do this with most of them as autumn dropped like a curtain here in Bigfoot Country and the humidity returned overnight.

Yes. Same basses built within 3 months of each other. same set of strings. Both are setup well. no fret buzz. Just one is set to Fender's suggested spec and the other to an independent tech's spec.

 

[Vinny_G]

I had the exact same experience with some basses, but not all. After doing numerous tests on the subtle relationship between neck relief and action, I am convinced that the differences you feel and hear are indeed due to these differences in setup.

 

[Turnaround]

thats how it feels to me. The bass with more neck relief- perhaps makes the string length a little less. Thats how it feels, but is that what's really going on?

No. There is no meaningful difference in string length with differing relief. Certainly not enough to be detectable by feel. Perhaps measurable, but it would be exceedingly tiny. Tinier than tiny.

 

[Turnaround]

Certainly one can feel the difference in setups. I notice when the relief of my bass changes more than about 2 thousandths of an inch. But changes that small will not affect tone unless there is a degree of fret buzz. However, you may pluck differently if there is more fret clearance, but that's you, not the setup.

 

[Twice19]

No. There is no meaningful difference in string length with differing relief. Certainly not enough to be detectable by feel. Perhaps measurable, but it would be exceedingly tiny. Tinier than tiny.

I can feel it. The tension in the right hand is different.

 

[Turnaround]

I can feel it. The tension in the right hand is different.

I did an in-depth study of tension and perception of tension. And there were many cases where a player perceived an increase in tension when there actually was none. And by looking at it another way, compliance is the flexibility of the string, and many players experienced lower compliance when there actually was significantly more. And these were significant differences, way beyond what is detectable in a change of relief of 10 thousandths of an inch.

 

[Twice19]

I did an in-depth study of tension and perception of tension. And there were many cases where a player perceived an increase in tension when there actually was none. And by looking at it another way, compliance is the flexibility of the string, and many players experienced lower compliance when there actually was significantly more. And these were significant differences, way beyond what is detectable in a change of relief of 10 thousandths of an inch.

1/100 of an inch is the difference, and there is more room for the string to oscillate?

 

[Turnaround]

1/100 of an inch is the difference, and there is more room for the string to oscillate?

If the string is not buzzing on a fret, adding more room for oscillation does nothing. So if you hear a difference, the lower setting is allowing the string to touch a fret in its vibrating length.

 

[RSBBass]

It would be fairly simple to check. Just change the setup on each to the one the other had.

 

[Hectobar]

It would be fairly simple to check. Just change the setup on each to the one the other had.

great idea to validate the set up theory.

the physics on tension is pretty straight forward. It’s physics and undeniable. How it feels to you and how a setup changes the way you play (how you touch and interact with the instrument) lands between black magic and art.

find your set up and rock it.

 

[Twice19]

It would be fairly simple to check. Just change the setup on each to the one the other had.

You're right, but they're vintage style P basses with nitro finishes, and both setup perfectly each in their own way. I don't want to take those necks off if I dont have to.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

You're right, but they're vintage style P basses with nitro finishes, and both setup perfectly each in their own way. I don't want to take those necks off if I dont have to.

Another variable is the truss rod. How tight are the truss rods in the two necks, in comparison to each other? I know, from actual testing, that the tightness of the truss rod in a Fender neck can noticeably change the overall sound of the bass. In the ways that you are describing.

I'll guess that the truss rod in the woodier-sounding bass is fairly loose. And the truss rod in the clearer, brighter sounding bass is tight.

Check the woody-sounding one. If its truss rod is loose, tighten it up enough to be at least snug. See if that brings the sound closer to the other one.

 

[Twice19]

Another variable is the truss rod. How tight are the truss rods in the two necks, in comparison to each other? I know, from actual testing, that the tightness of the truss rod in a Fender neck can noticeably change the overall sound of the bass. In the ways that you are describing.

I'll guess that the truss rod in the woodier-sounding bass is fairly loose. And the truss rod in the clearer, brighter sounding bass is tight.

Check the woody-sounding one. If its truss rod is loose, tighten it up enough to be at least snug. See if that brings the sound closer to the other one.

I dont know about looseness, but one has more relief than the other. .012 and .005.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I dont know about looseness, but one has more relief than the other. .012 and .005.

Yes, but that's independent of the tightness of the truss rod. One neck may have a slight forward bow, and its truss rod has been tightened more than stock to get the relief in the right range. The other may have a slight back bow, and its truss rod has been loosened. Both have been adjusted to within relief specs, but they end up with a big difference in how tight their truss rods are. And that can make a significant difference in the stiffness of the necks and the overall sound of the bass.

I'm not speculating here. I know this from many years of building necks and truss rods, and specific testing of Fender necks.