String through body

[lz4005]

I understand that the break angle is different. I have had problems with a steep break angle going through the body on a B string. By itself, I don't see what the break angle would have to do with stiffness or tightness. If the second part of you supposition, that a lot of string length allows more "stretch" when you bend, wouldn't that imply that top loading or tailpiece loading would make it easier to play out of tune than with string through?

Break angle has nothing to do with tightness. It only affects perceived stiffness.

Extra behind-the-bridge string length makes it (in theory) easier to bend strings when you want to bend them. Playing out of tune is a matter of bad technique, regardless of how bendy your strings are.

Think of it this way, and I'm not the first one to frame it in these terms: If you had 3 feet of string length between the nut and the tuner, a standard scale length, and then another 3 feet between the bridge and tailpiece you'd have 106 inches of total string to stretch when you bend a note. If you then clamped the string at the nut and bridge and cut off all the extra it would be at the same tension and pitch but it would be more difficult to bend because you'd only have 34 inches of string to stretch.

Similarly, if you think of a string going over a bridge saddle with almost no break angle there's less force pushing the saddle down towards the body than if there's a 90 degree bend immediately behind that saddle. Its the same reason there are string trees on Fender headstocks. Break angle and downforce makes strings work and feel different.

 

[wvbass]

I understand the difference between the terms tightness and stiffness as you are using them. I also understand that the extra length could make a string feel more flexible. I question whether the small difference in length between string-through and top-load is going to produce a noticeable effect. I suspect this is primarily psychological in this case.

If the string bends easier, regardless of reason, it is going to be easier playing out of tune by accidental bending. You are correct that this is addressed by using better technique, but one statement doesn't negate the other here. If top loading does in fact make the string less stiff/more bendable, it is going to be more conducive to playing out of tune.

I also understand about break angles and the downward force on the string. The break angle can change the total amount of force exerted past the saddle, but I just don't see it having much effect on the stiffness of the string. The only effect I have ever experienced with break angle is with too much or too little. Too little and the string can rattle or just not sit in the nut or saddle properly. Too little, and the extreme bend in the string separates the windings and makes the string sound dead. I suppose the latter could be due to damage from bending not related to the windings, too; this would track with comments about steep break angles leading to shorts string life. Not sure about that claim, but I'm not prepared to rule it out, either.

 

[villis]

I question whether the small difference in length between string-through and top-load is going to produce a noticeable effect. I suspect this is primarily psychological in this case.

we all know very well that very little changes in bass can bring too much difference in the way you feel the instrument! check how your feeling changes with a very little change in the truss rod or with a little change in the saddles! i think that this change from top load to thru body is one more change to effect in your playing feeling. thats all!

 

[lz4005]

I understand the difference between the terms tightness and stiffness as you are using them. I also understand that the extra length could make a string feel more flexible. I question whether the small difference in length between string-through and top-load is going to produce a noticeable effect. I suspect this is primarily psychological in this case.
....
I also understand about break angles and the downward force on the string. The break angle can change the total amount of force exerted past the saddle, but I just don't see it having much effect on the stiffness of the string. The only effect I have ever experienced with break angle is with too much or too little. Too little and the string can rattle or just not sit in the nut or saddle properly. Too little, and the extreme bend in the string separates the windings and makes the string sound dead. I suppose the latter could be due to damage from bending not related to the windings, too; this would track with comments about steep break angles leading to shorts string life. Not sure about that claim, but I'm not prepared to rule it out, either.

I don't disagree with you about the small difference between through body and through bridge string length. That's why I said it was theoretical and more relevant to longer tailpiece designs. It probably has an effect, but it's too small to make a practical difference here.

Basically it's all about the break angle and how that makes the string feel. It may not actually change the flexibility of the string in a way that you could measure scientifically, but it does make it feel different when you play it.

 

[OutToPlayJazz]

Cool! Love Status, by the way.


Sent from my asteroid using Awesome

Thanks Been playing Rob Green's basses for nearly 25 years now. Nothing out there to touch them!

 

[wvbass]

I don't disagree with you about the small difference between through body and through bridge string length. That's why I said it was theoretical and more relevant to longer tailpiece designs. It probably has an effect, but it's too small to make a practical difference here.

Basically it's all about the break angle and how that makes the string feel. It may not actually change the flexibility of the string in a way that you could measure scientifically, but it does make it feel different when you play it.

I'm willing to concede that you could be right and I could be wrong about break angle affecting the "feel" of a string. However, I'm not a fan of last statement. I don't mean that offensively, I just mean, that if there is a change in the flexibility of a string, it HAS to be measureable. Since this is basic physics, if it is not scientifically measurable, then it doesn't exist.

 

[darrenmt]

I'm willing to concede that you could be right and I could be wrong about break angle affecting the "feel" of a string. However, I'm not a fan of last statement. I don't mean that offensively, I just mean, that if there is a change in the flexibility of a string, it HAS to be measureable. Since this is basic physics, if it is not scientifically measurable, then it doesn't exist.

I don't think it is unmeasurable, more so just finding a means to measure. You could just conduct your own experiment on a bass that has both top load and string thru, realize there is a tactile difference and research a means of measurement, than finally, furnish us with your findings

 

[wvbass]

I don't think it is unmeasurable, more so just finding a means to measure. You could just conduct your own experiment on a bass that has both top load and string thru, realize there is a tactile difference and research a means of measurement, than finally, furnish us with your findings

That is my point; if it exists, I don't think it is unmeasurable. And you are assuming I would "realize there is a tactile difference." I'm pretty slow; that might not happen.

What kind of test do you propose? If a string's "feel" changes based on changes to conditions past the witness point, I would expect this "stiffness" or "flexibility" or whatever you want to call it would manifest itself in how easy the string is moved perpendicular to the string's length. If that is the case, one could use a spring scale (or similar) to pull laterally on a string at a defined location with a defined amount of force. The distance the string is moved would then be measured. If this measurement was conducted twice on the same bass with the same string and the same tuning with best efforts to make the only change be string through verses top load, would this be a fair test? Regardless of the outcome, how big does the sample set have to be before the results show a pattern?

 

[lz4005]

What I meant was that the difference in feel may not be a measurable difference in flexibility, it could be a difference in amplitude, or overtones, or efficiency of vibration transfer through the saddle, or a combination of any number of things.

 

[Deleted member 264575]

Maybe one of these is needed?;
From;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tension_meter

A tension meter is a device used to measure tension in wires, cables, textiles, belts and more. Meters commonly use a 3 roller system where the material travels through the rollers causing deflection in the center roller that is connected to an analog indicator or load cell on digital models. Single roll tension sensors and sonic tension meters are other types of tension meters. Tension meters are available as handheld devices or as equipment for fixed installations. These are basically necessary to build up a tension-controlled closed loop.

Cheers,
Neal.

 

[elBandito]

Not having the proper implementation to measure the difference is one thing, but difference too small to be immeasurable would just be negligible. Human "feel" isn't the most reliable way to measure. If human hands can feel it, machines could surely detect the same thing. Whether the person feels the difference in his head, or his hands is another matter.

 

[west al]

I string through the body on all four of my strings, on my four Am. Std.'s, with D'Addario ETB92 Nylon Tapewound strings. No problems here.

 

[David Jayne]

.... The increased break angle of through body feels stiffer to a lot of people, particularly on thicker strings.

.

Sure, because thick E and B strings won't make a sharp bend at the bridge, raising the action.....


:-D

 

[wvbass]

What I meant was that the difference in feel may not be a measurable difference in flexibility, it could be a difference in amplitude, or overtones, or efficiency of vibration transfer through the saddle, or a combination of any number of things.

Not having the proper implementation to measure the difference is one thing, but difference too small to be immeasurable would just be negligible. Human "feel" isn't the most reliable way to measure. If human hands can feel it, machines could surely detect the same thing. Whether the person feels the difference in his head, or his hands is another matter.

I hope this isn't too offensive a thing to say, but I think elBandito's post explains lz4005's post. I see no way that "overtones" or "vibration transfer" can affect the "feel" of a string; they would affect the sound of the string. I would be happy to admit I'm wrong if someone can convince me otherwise, but this sounds like nonsense to me.

 

[lz4005]

I hope this isn't too offensive a thing to say, but I think elBandito's post explains lz4005's post. I see no way that "overtones" or "vibration transfer" can affect the "feel" of a string; they would affect the sound of the string. I would be happy to admit I'm wrong if someone can convince me otherwise, but this sounds like nonsense to me.

I'm not offended. All I'm saying is that string-through feels different. I don't know the exact physics of why, but it is a real thing that a lot of people notice. Many of them mistakenly attribute it to a difference in tension, but that is clearly impossible.

Having a good witness point on the strings, which can be difficult with some B and E strings, in my experience makes for an almost identical tone between the two ways of stringing, but there's still a difference in feel on all the basses I've set up where there was the option of stringing both ways.

 

[JIO]

Just saw this thread - I'm a fan of string-thru and use every port (EADG) Just refinished/upgraded my 06 '51 RI P/Tele-style bass w/large barrel ferrules. Does it make a difference? Hell yah - it looks great! (sounds great too, but it alway did!)

 

[darrenmt]

I am not a physicist nor am i good at explaining the theory behind string stiffness with regards to the subject matter but i'll give it a go.

IMO something not mentioned so far is string movement when it is plucked, possible tortion as well as lateral movement/string elasticity past the witness point. Something to consider due to a shallower break angle at the witness point with top load stringing.

Compare this to string thru which seems to have a steep break angle at the anchor point(bridge faceplate) and again steeper break angle at the witness point(saddles), possibly increasing tortional stiffness and reducing elasticity to a certain degree.

This could add in some way to increased 'perceived tension/stiffness' with string thru.

 

[Jbassrockboy]

Seems like a great of technical discussion on something which apparently doesn't add value

It would be interesting to see a formal clarification from fender USA as to what the added feature of string through body actually provides

Is it that no one actually knows ?

Rossa

 

[Jbassrockboy]

I had never questioned or even thought about the merits of string through until I came across TB

I use to always run strings through the body because that's how my guitars were designed

It wasn't until I went ti flats and noticed cracking on the strings at the break angle that I then changed to string through the bridge

It was then I realised that the whole thing about string through body possibly didn't add up to much

But I am intrigued because there must have been a reason why fender went with the through body option. ...

Rossa

 

[mongo2]

Just saw this thread - I'm a fan of string-thru and use every port (EADG) Just refinished/upgraded my 06 '51 RI P/Tele-style bass w/large barrel ferrules. Does it make a difference? Hell yah - it looks great! (sounds great too, but it alway did!)

Titanium ferrules sound better.