strings for a Fender '51 Precision bass to avoid intonation problems with two-saddle bridge

[2saddleslab]

None. The two-saddle bridge is inferior. Flame me as you will, I stand by this, having played them. A couple of companies make bridges that fit the old '51-style plate and screw holes that accommodate this, whether by using four saddles, or two angled saddles. Back when it didn't matter, it didn't matter. But with modern digital recording that reveals every nit, flea, wart, and imperfection, to say nothing about the strings that were originally strung on these bridges no longer exist and cannot be duplicated, two-saddle bridges are obsolete.

Just finished a two album recording and neither the engineer or any of my bandmates complained about any nit, flea, wart, or imperfection coming from my obsolete 2 saddle bridge. Same goes for the other 5 recordings going back to 1991. I wouldn't be using them if what you said was true.

Meanwhile, Fiber or Bakelite saddle sound different to brass saddle ....

I just replaced brass saddles w/ fiber, no difference in sound, playability, or intonation.

 

[TheArchitect]

hi everybody! I'm writing today because I'm in a momentary indecision about this particular bass.

mine is a Custom Shop 1951 NOS (pics attached) that I started using with its original strings, Fender 9050M (flatwound, 55-70-90-105), which I liked but didn't fell for them, and then switched to GHS Precision Flatwound in the same gauge, which I get is the original gauge of the Fender Mastersound strings when they were stock on Fender basses (but not on the first '51, who had rounds).

after one year and a half I've grown tired of those flats because, in some way, I think that they limit the sound of this particular instrument: the '51 is bright, more like a Jazz Bass with the neck pickup than a Precision with the split coil, and flats on this bass sound good but I prefer them on the split coil.

so I was thinking of restringing it with rounds, but the real question, as in the topic's title, is related to the intonation.

before acquiring this bass I've owned a japanese model from the 2000's and tried some different sets of strings, but encountered intonation problems due to the bridge that only has two saddles.
if the E string is good, the A string isn't.
if the D string is good, the G string isn't

by far, the Fender 7150M (pure nickel) and the 9050 both M and R (45-100, 55-105) gave me the most precise intonation, which doesn't mean perfect intonation on every string, but at least a non-noticeable +/- few cents on one of the string of the couple.

other sets gave me real issues, like 15/20cent out of tune on the frets. in particular on the E string, because in most sets it's the string that intonate the farther from the neck.

right now the GHS 55-105 flats intonate "good", and the lack of sustain from the E string and it's "thud" helps hiding the small intonation issue.

however, thinking about rounds, all the strings sustain, so I need a set that doesn't shag up the intonation without changing the bridge

what do you use on this particular style of instrument?

You will need to use the same trick the tele guys do. Find a good spot where 1 is a touch flat and the other a touch sharp and then bend the screw to angle the saddle to fine tune it. Its not a simple thing to do at all but it does work.

 

[2saddleslab]

You will need to use the same trick the tele guys do. Find a good spot where 1 is a touch flat and the other a touch sharp and then bend the screw to angle the saddle to fine tune it. Its not a simple thing to do at all but it does work.

There's usually enough existing play, regardless of saddle type, to nudge a saddle forward or backward. I will agree the type of string will affect the ease or trouble getting proper intonation.

 

[bassdude51]

Well, I love the SCPBs and have 4 of them. Just like 2saddleslab I use TI Flats.

Intonation. Perfect intonation is impossible and I'm not referring to just the bridge saddles. Even on a so called perfectly intonated bass, fretted notes are not 100% in tune. I use a tuner on an open string and get it perfect and then check with fretted notes down to #5. There's variations.

Also, I've perfectly intonated with 4 saddles bridges and checked again a week later. Slightly changed!

Personally, I would not get too overly hung up on exact intonation with a 2 saddle bridge. Get it as good as you can and play your bass. Nobody including you is gonna notice slight intonation error. And really, even if we could hear the difference (and we can't), it'd be on frets higher than #12.

A bass would need to be tuned every 10 minutes because body heat from the fingers change tuning. Intonation and tuning are never perfect.

Just live with it.

One final comment, do you really want to play rounds on those vintage, little skinny frets? Roto Sounds? YIKES! Roto Files.

 

[2saddleslab]

Well, I love the SCPBs and have 4 of them. Just like 2saddleslab I use TI Flats.

Intonation. Perfect intonation is impossible and I'm not referring to just the bridge saddles. Even on a so called perfectly intonated bass, fretted notes are not 100% in tune. I use a tuner on an open string and get it perfect and then check with fretted notes down to #5. There's variations.

Also, I've perfectly intonated with 4 saddles bridges and checked again a week later. Slightly changed!

Personally, I would not get too overly hung up on exact intonation with a 2 saddle bridge. Get it as good as you can and play your bass. Nobody including you is gonna notice slight intonation error. And really, even if we could hear the difference (and we can't), it'd be on frets higher than #12.

A bass would need to be tuned every 10 minutes because body heat from the fingers change tuning. Intonation and tuning are never perfect.

Just live with it.

One final comment, do you really want to play rounds on those vintage, little skinny frets? Roto Sounds? YIKES! Roto Files.

Always the voice of reason.

 

[Stewie]

Fender Mastersound strings when they were stock on Fender basses (but not on the first '51, who had rounds).

I don’t think so Tim

 

[nonohmic]

Just put a better bridge on it. Nobody can see it under the ashtray and even if they did no one would care.

And the one neck beard that goes ‘ackshually… that’s not a period correct bridge’ is a nonce and shouldn’t be listened to anyways

 

[Pier_]

I don’t think so Tim

that's history, well documented you can check the long topic about Fender strings and their history, for many references.
the first bass strings were roundwounds with a nickel winding (not nickel plated steel), 55-110 in gauge.

Personally, I would not get too overly hung up on exact intonation with a 2 saddle bridge. Get it as good as you can and play your bass. Nobody including you is gonna notice slight intonation error.

that's what I said now I have some slight percentage out of tune on the upper frets of the E string, but its not noticeable while playing or recording. I've had 20/25cent out of tune with some strings, and the worst was almost half a tone :O and that was noticeable!

the best thing would be to have the nearest precise intonation possible.

ust put a better bridge on it. Nobody can see it under the ashtray and even if they did no one would care.

that's ok, but guys, I asked another thing, and the topic talks about it, not only for me.

 

[Stewie]

Funny. The 51 I tried to buy at a shop had flats. It was 1976, but the bass was pristine, unplayed and still wore the cardboard tag tied to one of the strings explaining what notes they should be tuned to. I’ve been looking and found a thread here about it. In his lab Leo had gut stings with round wire wraps at the pickup. But the first shipped wore Squier flats. Squier was a manufacturer of violin strings (which are flat wound)

It doesn’t really matter, use whatever makes the sound you are looking for

 

[nonohmic]

that's history, well documented you can check the long topic about Fender strings and their history, for many references.
the first bass strings were roundwounds with a nickel winding (not nickel plated steel), 55-110 in gauge.


that's what I said now I have some slight percentage out of tune on the upper frets of the E string, but its not noticeable while playing or recording. I've had 20/25cent out of tune with some strings, and the worst was almost half a tone :O and that was noticeable!

the best thing would be to have the nearest precise intonation possible.



that's ok, but guys, I asked another thing, and the topic talks about it, not only for me.

Fair. But sir, this is the internet.

 

[iiipopes]

this bridge helps, but the '51 has the fiber saddles that cannot be moved much



I won't argue with this statement, this bass IS obsolete, is a vintage replica of the first design ever, with all the flaws it had:

- two saddles bridge
- standalone single coil pickup with flat poles (a lot of hum and different volume on A and D compared to E and G)
- slab body

however, I like it as it is, and don't want to modify it I have other basses, up to modern 6 strings, and this one lives for its design and flaws, which are part of the sound.

Here is the problem: everybody looks at instruments such as this with hindsight, claiming "flaws." Nobody bothers to analyze what came before so that the advances that this instrument, an early P-bass, made were state-of-the-art for the time. The two-saddle bridge was a great improvement over what came before: nothing. So it functioned well in an age when the strings were gut wrapped with wire over the pickup to make it work, then later custom made by the V.C.Squier corporation, and the paper cone speakers were compliant enough that no real definition could be had even if you wanted it. So nobody noticed the intonation quirks. But if you listen to Roy Johnson with the Lionel Hampton band, the first notable use of a P-bass, and in a jazz band at that, it worked.

The issue is that time, musical styles, manner of recording, etc., marches on. What functioned well in the early '50's does not work well today. Do you want to drive an early 50's Chevrolet with a stove-bolt six with 90 horsepower and three-on-the-tree manual transmission in modern traffic? No. I did in the late 70's, my grandmother's car, getting it ready to sell it after she died. No, thank you. I will take my turbo-4 and automatic transmission, especially since my hips and knees now hurt when I even think about driving a manual transmission, thank you very much. Same with bass guitar hardware. Why be stuck in the past with compromised intonation when a modern bridge will work better? If you want the tone, Lindy Fralin will wind you a pickup that is indistinguishable from a vintage pickup.

 

[Pocket Dave]

that's not true, string sets intonate in different (and constant) positions, depending on the string construction, so in a limited situation like this, with a two saddle bridge, a set where the "couples" intonate in a similar position will probably solve this issue, or at least making it less evident.

I've had even cases where they solved a "single saddle" problem, for example the Schaller 3D, which is a great bridge but had a very limited run for the saddles.
I've had it on a bass and I had to use only specific strings because the E saddle couldn't go much backward, and with a lot of strings it would not intonate.
Thomastik saved me for the most, because the E saddle goes almost in the same position as the A string.

I'd consider that a "happy accident". Finding a new set of rounds with those exact properties would be a long shot, and not likely to be crowd-advised due to the fact that most who prefer to play a '51 prefer flats.

Better to replace the bridge saddles with the Wilkinson adjustable compensating ones I linked yesterday and address the problem in a way that allows adjustment for ANY string type you choose. The Wilkinson saddles are brass, not fiber - Fender went away from fiber/Bakelite in favor of brass after '51 for a reason - Bakelite was originally used because Fender wanted to attract upright players who were used to that low-E thud. Problem was music was evolving with louder guitars and bass players needed access to a more articulate low-E tone in order to cut through with underpowered bass amps of the era.

Brass will give you a sweeter, more sustaining tone that works especially well with both flats (you might not need to change) and PURE nickel rounds, which are warmer & richer sounding than nickel-plated rounds.

Side note - using Bakelite/fiber saddles and foam muting were early ways to get some cool, upright-like tones, and are still used nostalgically, But they've been replaced by evolving electric bass techniques. By the late '60s, bassists were removing bridge covers and using palm-muting, which allowed them to adjust to a variety of music styles. Also, by the '60s, finger style plucking became more common - its technique evolved to include more dynamic, nuanced muting that allowed more turn-on-a-dime note duration control.

 

[Pocket Dave]

That one has brass saddles. Wouldn’t any subtle tone difference be mostly due to the fibre material of the saddles?

It would - good point. See my prior-post reply to the OP.

 

[2saddleslab]

The most expensive possession is a closed mind.

 

[brianrost]

I’ll just point that while having individual saddles is more flexible, two saddles, or even one can do the job…both old Danelectros and modern NS Design basses use a single saddle and most string sets can be properly intonated.

 

[Dynacord]

that's history, well documented you can check the long topic about Fender strings and their history, for many references.
the first bass strings were roundwounds with a nickel winding (not nickel plated steel), 55-110 in gauge.


that's what I said now I have some slight percentage out of tune on the upper frets of the E string, but its not noticeable while playing or recording. I've had 20/25cent out of tune with some strings, and the worst was almost half a tone :O and that was noticeable!

the best thing would be to have the nearest precise intonation possible.



that's ok, but guys, I asked another thing, and the topic talks about it, not only for me.

FWIW about 35 years ago I saw a '51 from original owner's family and it supposedly had the original strings - they certainly looked old enough even then - and they looked like roundwound piano strings. They were pretty dark so I would have thought some copper content but maybe not. Oddly tied off at the ends, not a ball as used now. Who knows, but looked right. Wish I had a camera at the time but long before smartphones...

I know Terry Foster has some old stock roundwound bass strings still in the original 50s packaging.

 

[logdrum]

As a telecaster player who insist on a similar saddle, I first upgrade my guitar to a compensated version. Does the same exist for bass?

Even with compensated saddles. it's still a compromise for each pair and that's what I end up doing and usually I get it on the money with a string or 2 a few cents off. Also note that string height and relief will affect it too - it's an art more than a science. I have even successful adjusting guitars with no compensated saddles *purist owners" who will not use a compensated saddle.

Now I do not know with bass but I'd imagine it to be similar with a slightly less tolerance compared to a telecaster.

 

[antfarm]

If you have the bridge cover on anyway and want the best of both sides (looks and adjustability), there is also this replacement bridge with a two-saddle baseplate and four modern-style saddles:

Fully compensatable bass bridge for 51 Precision string thru, brass or chrome saddles, 19mm spacing (through, compensated) – Retrovibe

 

[BigDrew]

If you have the bridge cover on anyway and want the best of both sides (looks and adjustability), there is also this mashup of a two-saddle baseplate with four modern-style saddles:

Fully compensatable bass bridge for 51 Precision string thru, brass or chrome saddles, 19mm spacing (through, compensated) – Retrovibe

Cool! Thank you for posting this!

 

[dfredman]

I went through similar contortions in the 1980s with a 1952 P-Bass. I tried a lot of different kinds of flatwounds to achieve intonational nirvana, with the Fender F-80s being my favorites (particularly after they deadened up enough after a couple of months' worth of playing), but the bass was never really absolutely in tune enough to play fusion on. Since the serial number was on the bridge, I didn’t want to swap the whole thing out for a replacement bridge, but Seymour Duncan made me some replacement saddle pieces out of brass rods that helped a little but didn't really solve the problem.

The ‘52 bass was stolen before I solved the intonation problem, but around 1999 I ran across a 1951 for sale, so I cashed in my retirement account and it’s been my main bass ever since. It has the same intonation issues, but as mentioned above, the only path to perfection with this bass is to embrace its flaws. It helps that I’m not playing fusion or bop, and I don't need to impress anyone with my slapping abilities. The original single coil pickup sounds best with flatwounds and I’ve been using Thomastik flats since the early 00s. I change them religiously at least once every 10 years or so, about the time they get so dead that it sounds like I'm playing on soggy french fries. I put a set of the new EB Pino Palladino flats (mediums) on another bass and I like them, and they’ll probably feel great on the ’51. FWIW, the signal chain that I run my Precision through is an xotic Bass RC Booster into a Demeter amp and a couple of Aguilar 12" cabinets. The sound is awesome, even if my playing isn’t so much these days. I play fewer notes, but BETTER notes. The drummers and dancers like it that way, and I no longer lose sleep over intonation concerns.