Struggle with live bass tone

[Wasnex]

Have you tried running everything flat? Turn off all the filters and start with a nice, flat signal across the board. It’s the correct starting position, especially if you’re new to sound.

IMHO, Flat on the channel strips is not necessarily where good veteran audio techs typically start...but it is a good starting point for someone who does not have experience.

 

[Medicine Man]

Nice thing about qu boards is that you can have someone set it up, and then save all the stuff to a scene. Then you just need to do room tweaks for where you are playing. I have ran a tonehammer into a qu for countless shows. I would echo that your system is likely pushing too much lows. Don't buy into the hype that the subs need to be throbbing like an edm show. As others have stated, use the channel HPF on every channel at like 250 except bass at 70ish and the kick at 40. Don't boost lows on the TH, boost mids instead. If you have keys, notch the eq down in the low mids as well. Let the kick drum live in sub town while you live in low mids. Subtractive eq is the way. Don't boost schizz on the board unless the vocals need it.

 

[Mastermold]

Hello. Looking for some advice on getting an articulate live bass sound. I am currently playing in a country/rock cover band. I am currently playing through a Tone Hammer DI direct to the board. I generally play a Fender P or J, but sometimes play a G&L L2000 as well.

Before joining this band I've only played in smaller groups where only the vocals were assisted by a PA. We were on the quieter side and our amps could hold their own. Playing through just my amp, the tone was deep and present, but also articulate, defined and full of nuance.

In this bigger (and louder) band, my tone is about as articulate as mashed potatoes. Sure, there's a deep sonic presence, but nothing else. The bands system is not lacking. Allen and Heath QU16 through a pair of QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops. I care much more about definition than shaking the rafters. I try to dial up a little grit with the Tone Hammer, but it still sounds so bland compared to pushing my cab. We do our own sound and I will admit we are definitely green at it.

If anyone has ever been in the same boat and figured it out, or has better live sound experience I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!

When I first started using a Tone Hammer 500 I wasn't happy with the tone but (for me at least) once I started pushing the gain I got the sounds I was looking for. Perhaps give that a shot.

 

[BassMic_84]

It could be two or three combined issues out of about a dozen possible issues. Getting a sound tech in for a few gigs is the best advice I’ve seen in responses.

I personally have always been a little disappointed in my bass sound out of any PA I’ve played through and I’ve played through a bunch. In my case, I think there’s a an expectation of hearing myself the same as out of my amp, except louder, and I’ve concluded that’s never going to be the case.

Assuming you are liking what you hear in your IEMs, have you ever spoken to someone in the crowd at your gigs and got feedback on your bass tone in the PA mix? It could be you have a little “doesn’t sound like my amp tone” syndrome, but you sound great in the mix to others.

I definitely had an expectation of of hearing it sound the same as playing out of my amp, but louder . That was one of the reasons I chose the Tone Hammer Preamp/DI...hoping to get close to my rig sound. I've accepted the fact that it won't be all the way there, but definitely hope to get closer. Lots of great advice here so far.

I've gotten feedback from other musicians at shows. They hear the same as me...low end presence, but as far as watching my hands and what they are doing up and down the neck...none of that is really coming through.

 

[BassMic_84]

This is a dumb question, but are you listening to your bass tone from out front? It will sound like mud and garbage behind the mains. Also what kind of IEM's are you using? Cheap IEM's will also sound like garbage. Make sure you have very good isolation, i.e. when you put them in you shouldn't hear much of anything from the outside world. You should also be able to control your own monitor mix with the Allen and Heath QU16--are you pushing your bass high enough in the mix? What kind of EQ and/or compression is being applied to your signal at the mixer? What makes your bass sound good out front may unfortunately not sound great in your ears. My experience is that if you give your FOH engineer a good signal to begin with, it should still remain mostly good in your ears unless they're doing something extreme to it. Finally, check to see if there is any eq/compression being applied to the aux mix that drives your IEM's. All those things have an effect, sometimes a very large one, on what you are hearing. Finally, a system-wide HPF at 40 hz isn't too extreme. Kick drum 'thump' is around 60 hz, and most bass energy that we hear is the first harmonic and above. Letting much below 40 hz into the mains can potentially damage subwoofers, so the FOH engineer is making a choice to balance good bass energy with protecting the system. But the channel HPF on vocals, guitar, snare, toms, and drum overheads should be much higher, 80 - 100 Hz or so.

Yes, I've been designated "sound guy" because I have the most interest within the band of getting a better understanding of it. I step out front with an iPad for our sound checks and mostly just make sure levels are ok, vocals are clear and nothing is harsh. But yeah, I am hearing my bass tone out front, and it is very much less than desirable.

As far as in-ears go, it has been a struggle. I've tried several different brands, from couple hundred dollar Shures and Mackies to $50 KZs, single to 5 drivers, and every tip shape, size and material (haven't sprung for custom molds yet). The issue I have is that once I seal my ear canal, whether it is with the IEMs or even just my finger tips, the amount of bass I hear resonating in my ears or head or whatever is crushing. I have to turn the bass up in my ears so much just to overcome the roar that sometimes it ends up hurting more than having a wedge screaming in my face for 4 hours. I've seen an audiologist about it, and while nothing is a clear answer, I do have scarring in my deep nasal passages as well as narrow eustachian tubes (chronic allergies and ear infections as a kid). The pressure in my ears always feels off, choked and unbalanced, even as I sit here typing. Funny thing is that I pass my annual hearing exam every year with flying colors, but stick the IEMs in and I may as well be 12 feet underwater haha. I usually start the show hoping it will be a good experience, but usually by second set I've pulled them out and put in filtered earplugs and play off of what I can hear in the room. May sound crazy but I play better that way. I don't get a good mix, but I can tell what the hell is going on at least .

 

[GroovyBaby]

Yes, I've been designated "sound guy" because I have the most interest within the band of getting a better understanding of it. I step out front with an iPad for our sound checks and mostly just make sure levels are ok, vocals are clear and nothing is harsh. But yeah, I am hearing my bass tone out front, and it is very much less than desirable.

As far as in-ears go, it has been a struggle. I've tried several different brands, from couple hundred dollar Shures and Mackies to $50 KZs, single to 5 drivers, and every tip shape, size and material (haven't sprung for custom molds yet). The issue I have is that once I seal my ear canal, whether it is with the IEMs or even just my finger tips, the amount of bass I hear resonating in my ears or head or whatever is crushing. I have to turn the bass up in my ears so much just to overcome the roar that sometimes it ends up hurting more than having a wedge screaming in my face for 4 hours. I've seen an audiologist about it, and while nothing is a clear answer, I do have scarring in my deep nasal passages as well as narrow eustachian tubes (chronic allergies and ear infections as a kid). The pressure in my ears always feels off, choked and unbalanced, even as I sit here typing. Funny thing is that I pass my annual hearing exam every year with flying colors, but stick the IEMs in and I may as well be 12 feet underwater haha. I usually start the show hoping it will be a good experience, but usually by second set I've pulled them out and put in filtered earplugs and play off of what I can hear in the room. May sound crazy but I play better that way. I don't get a good mix, but I can tell what the hell is going on at least .

Wow, that sounds like a loud stage. You should be able to get enough isolation with the IEMs to turn down all the instruments, rather than just cranking your bass. You may be hitting the limit of the IEMs and over compressing everything due to too much gain. Try turning everything down as low as possible, then adjust the bass up until you can hear it clearly. It sounds like everyone is just taking up too much room in your mix. Your guitarists need to slot their sound into a limited EQ range so that they don't compete with each other or you. Ideally, everyone has their own slice. If they are stomping all over your frequencies, it will be hard to fix otherwise.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hello. Looking for some advice on getting an articulate live bass sound. I am currently playing in a country/rock cover band. I am currently playing through a Tone Hammer DI direct to the board. I generally play a Fender P or J, but sometimes play a G&L L2000 as well.

Before joining this band I've only played in smaller groups where only the vocals were assisted by a PA. We were on the quieter side and our amps could hold their own. Playing through just my amp, the tone was deep and present, but also articulate, defined and full of nuance.

In this bigger (and louder) band, my tone is about as articulate as mashed potatoes. Sure, there's a deep sonic presence, but nothing else. The bands system is not lacking. Allen and Heath QU16 through a pair of QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops. I care much more about definition than shaking the rafters. I try to dial up a little grit with the Tone Hammer, but it still sounds so bland compared to pushing my cab. We do our own sound and I will admit we are definitely green at it.

If anyone has ever been in the same boat and figured it out, or has better live sound experience I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!

Turn down your bass knob, and then turn up. Boosting things on your eq really makes problems that simply turning up and cutting something else would fix.

 

[Wasnex]

Yes, I've been designated "sound guy" because I have the most interest within the band of getting a better understanding of it. I step out front with an iPad for our sound checks and mostly just make sure levels are ok, vocals are clear and nothing is harsh. But yeah, I am hearing my bass tone out front, and it is very much less than desirable.

As far as in-ears go, it has been a struggle. I've tried several different brands, from couple hundred dollar Shures and Mackies to $50 KZs, single to 5 drivers, and every tip shape, size and material (haven't sprung for custom molds yet). The issue I have is that once I seal my ear canal, whether it is with the IEMs or even just my finger tips, the amount of bass I hear resonating in my ears or head or whatever is crushing. I have to turn the bass up in my ears so much just to overcome the roar that sometimes it ends up hurting more than having a wedge screaming in my face for 4 hours. I've seen an audiologist about it, and while nothing is a clear answer, I do have scarring in my deep nasal passages as well as narrow eustachian tubes (chronic allergies and ear infections as a kid). The pressure in my ears always feels off, choked and unbalanced, even as I sit here typing. Funny thing is that I pass my annual hearing exam every year with flying colors, but stick the IEMs in and I may as well be 12 feet underwater haha. I usually start the show hoping it will be a good experience, but usually by second set I've pulled them out and put in filtered earplugs and play off of what I can hear in the room. May sound crazy but I play better that way. I don't get a good mix, but I can tell what the hell is going on at least .

One possible explanation: When you close off your ears it creates a resonance. The term for this is occlusion effect. The resonance distorts the frequency response.

EQ can be applied to get a more natural sound. I believe high-end hearing aids have a means of measuring the frequency response and then applying corrective EQ.

So I suggest spending some time to try and build an EQ curve in the mirror image of your occlusion effect. If the mixer has EQ on the monitor outputs, apply the curve there.

I also suggest learning how to use and applying limiting on the output of each IEM mix. In order for the limiting to work well, you need to make sure the signal levels have the right relationship to the compressor threshold. To do this well requires knowledge, attention, and skill...but IMHO it is absolutely essential.

The limiter ratio should be as close as possible to a brick wall. Also the level and threshold should be set where the limiter engages when the signal goes slightly above the expected peak value. In other words, during a performance the limiter should only engage on rare occasion. But if feedback or some other accidently occurs, the limiter should immediately clamp the signal to prevent hearing damage. In order for this to work, you have to run your IEMs at a safe level.

Most people find it much easier to hear with stereo IEM mixes. But stereo requires more resources and is more work. I suggest putting bass instruments in the center. If you sing, your voice should also be at or near the center. Pan everyting else in 3-5dB intervals. Max panning for most sound sources should typically be no more than about 15dB L/R. You may find some sound sources that work panned 20dB or more, like a nice stereo reverb or possibly overhead drum mics.

The reason to avoid hard panning is something called binaural summation. If you hear a sound equally in both ears it is perceived 6dB louder than if you only hear it in one ear. Panning opens up the sound stage so you can hear more clearly, but hard panning requires you to turn up a sound source as much as 6dB.

 

[ashtray]

When I read the thread titie, my first thought was “too much low end”. Then I read your post about the 18” subs, etc, and then I knew it was probably WAY too much low end.

Bass guitar is a bit misleading of a name. Bassy guitar might be better, or “one octave lower” guitar even more accurate. The trap many bassist and sound techs fall in to is thinking bass guitar means bass knob on the eq.

At higher volumes, you likely want to cut some bass frequencies actually! Mids are your friend for note definition. A parametric mids control is great for dialing in exactly which mid range frequency is right for you. (Your bass, your music, the room, etc.)

So yeah, start HPF at 50Hz, no feed to the subs, and cut back the bass frequency on the board for your channel a touch. As in, just off the center detent. Start there and see how that sounds. You can always add more bass in if the bottom end feels lacking.

Also note, some stages sound “boomy” with the speakers resting on essentially a giant hollow box. If you can move the subs to the floor, that might clean up the sound for the whole band.

 

[Reedt2000]

Yes, I've been designated "sound guy" because I have the most interest within the band of getting a better understanding of it. I step out front with an iPad for our sound checks and mostly just make sure levels are ok, vocals are clear and nothing is harsh. But yeah, I am hearing my bass tone out front, and it is very much less than desirable.

As far as in-ears go, it has been a struggle. I've tried several different brands, from couple hundred dollar Shures and Mackies to $50 KZs, single to 5 drivers, and every tip shape, size and material (haven't sprung for custom molds yet). The issue I have is that once I seal my ear canal, whether it is with the IEMs or even just my finger tips, the amount of bass I hear resonating in my ears or head or whatever is crushing. I have to turn the bass up in my ears so much just to overcome the roar that sometimes it ends up hurting more than having a wedge screaming in my face for 4 hours. I've seen an audiologist about it, and while nothing is a clear answer, I do have scarring in my deep nasal passages as well as narrow eustachian tubes (chronic allergies and ear infections as a kid). The pressure in my ears always feels off, choked and unbalanced, even as I sit here typing. Funny thing is that I pass my annual hearing exam every year with flying colors, but stick the IEMs in and I may as well be 12 feet underwater haha. I usually start the show hoping it will be a good experience, but usually by second set I've pulled them out and put in filtered earplugs and play off of what I can hear in the room. May sound crazy but I play better that way. I don't get a good mix, but I can tell what the hell is going on at least .

Why not ditch the IEMs and just run a wedge? Or one of those little powered monitors that gets stuck on a mic stand?

As far as FOH, I think with a little EQ you can get where you wanna be. You may also want to look for other instruments like guitar, keyboards, or snare, that step on your articulation frequency wise. It might be that a little EQ dipping out some mids from the offending component lets your bass shine through.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

The first thing I would do in your situation would be to ditch the Tone Hammer (not necessarily permanently, but for troubleshooting) and run your P-bass into a more basic/clean, decent quality active DI box (like Countryman, BSS, etc.). A standard, passive P-bass straight into a clean active DI box should ALWAYS work. It may not be the most exciting tone ever but it's a tried and tested safe choice.

Two things can happen:

1) Your tone improves. This means it's time to look at the eq settings on your Tone Hammer. The Tone Hammer has a VERY flexible eq but this also means it's very easy to dial in a poor tone. Cutting the lows and slightly boosting the mids (maybe somewhere between 800 Hz - 1 kHz) could perhaps be a good place to start if you're looking for better definition. Or maybe the coloration of the Tone Hammer just isn't right for you.

...or

2) You still sound like mashed potatoes with a P-bass through a clean DI. This would suggest that the problem isn't in your personal signal chain but a FOH/mixing issue. This can be a bit more complicated. All rooms are different, especially in the problematic lower frequencies. Do NOT expect to find any "set and forget" eq settings on your mixing desk that will give you a superb bass tone through FOH in every room. That's just not gonna happen. There's a reason why we use professional FOH engineers. Doing your own sound will always be a compromise, especially if you don't have much experience doing live sound. Maybe you could hire a FOH engineer? At least for a while until you get more experience with live sound?

 

[Hounddog409]

Hello. Looking for some advice on getting an articulate live bass sound. I am currently playing in a country/rock cover band. I am currently playing through a Tone Hammer DI direct to the board. I generally play a Fender P or J, but sometimes play a G&L L2000 as well.

Before joining this band I've only played in smaller groups where only the vocals were assisted by a PA. We were on the quieter side and our amps could hold their own. Playing through just my amp, the tone was deep and present, but also articulate, defined and full of nuance.

In this bigger (and louder) band, my tone is about as articulate as mashed potatoes. Sure, there's a deep sonic presence, but nothing else. The bands system is not lacking. Allen and Heath QU16 through a pair of QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops. I care much more about definition than shaking the rafters. I try to dial up a little grit with the Tone Hammer, but it still sounds so bland compared to pushing my cab. We do our own sound and I will admit we are definitely green at it.

If anyone has ever been in the same boat and figured it out, or has better live sound experience I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!

Dont scoop your eq.
Need mids in the eq to grt rid of what you are hearing.

 

[JazznFunk]

Overhyped subs (a huge problem in modern live sound) and possibly over-scooped mids in the house mix. Common among engineers who want the kick to dominate and the bass to be felt more than heard. The Tone Hammer has a lot of power to overcome that with the sweepable mids, if you're sending any sort of post-EQ signal. I used to go direct using no amp for a long time using just a Tone Hammer and it worked great. Powerful sound and no issue at all with a 'strong' signal. I generally ran gain and volume each at noon to start with, and goosed the gain a little for more presence. I never found 'AGS' to be useful. The standard setting, but with careful adjustments to the gain and volume, were more than enough to make it shine in the FOH. The only thing I used to massage on the mids were any 'woofy' points. I generally was playing a Lakland 44-02 or 55-01 and was using the Tone Hammer just to fine tune for FOH and stage.... never any major EQ adjustments, and generally a post-EQ signal unless the FOH specifically said no to that. Never had ANY complaints.

 

[sawzalot]

I am hearing my bass tone out front, and it is very much less than desirable.

I would fix this first.

You have some work to do--set up your PA somewhere when you have time to chase this down. Since bass is causing you issues, I'd start with soloing the bass channel and get the signal processing so it sounds right. Check your mains crossover points also--I've seen a gap where for example subs are crossed over at 80 hz and mains are crossed over at 120 hz, leaving a huge gap between those frequencies, so be sure to check that. But the goal is to get each instrument sounding good in the mains before you start mixing them. If you can accomplish that, in theory you should fix both the sound out front and the sound in your ears. If you're starting with a good signal, the less processing in the channel strip the better, usually. I usually apply HPF, mild eq, and mild compression to each channel, nothing too extreme. If the component parts sound good, the system should sound good. I save the more extreme processing for correcting for the room I'm in, etc.

 

[eddododo]

Hello. Looking for some advice on getting an articulate live bass sound. I am currently playing in a country/rock cover band. I am currently playing through a Tone Hammer DI direct to the board. I generally play a Fender P or J, but sometimes play a G&L L2000 as well.

Before joining this band I've only played in smaller groups where only the vocals were assisted by a PA. We were on the quieter side and our amps could hold their own. Playing through just my amp, the tone was deep and present, but also articulate, defined and full of nuance.

In this bigger (and louder) band, my tone is about as articulate as mashed potatoes. Sure, there's a deep sonic presence, but nothing else. The bands system is not lacking. Allen and Heath QU16 through a pair of QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops. I care much more about definition than shaking the rafters. I try to dial up a little grit with the Tone Hammer, but it still sounds so bland compared to pushing my cab. We do our own sound and I will admit we are definitely green at it.

If anyone has ever been in the same boat and figured it out, or has better live sound experience I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!

so there will be a lot of good advice here, but here’s a little tidbit from my own experience- if I’m in a good tone era, but suddenly my tone sucks or is frustrating etc, usually what’s happening is that I’m digging in too much with my right hand to compensate for my rig / monitor / whatever being a little too quiet or not sensitive enough. 9 times out of 10, if I turn my level up and then consciously reset and play with a nicer touch, suddenly it’s tone heaven.

there may be some component of this that applies to your frustration.

 

[BassMic_84]

The first thing I would do in your situation would be to ditch the Tone Hammer (not necessarily permanently, but for troubleshooting) and run your P-bass into a more basic/clean, decent quality active DI box (like Countryman, BSS, etc.). A standard, passive P-bass straight into a clean active DI box should ALWAYS work. It may not be the most exciting tone ever but it's a tried and tested safe choice.

Two things can happen:

1) Your tone improves. This means it's time to look at the eq settings on your Tone Hammer. The Tone Hammer has a VERY flexible eq but this also means it's very easy to dial in a poor tone. Cutting the lows and slightly boosting the mids (maybe somewhere between 800 Hz - 1 kHz) could perhaps be a good place to start if you're looking for better definition. Or maybe the coloration of the Tone Hammer just isn't right for you.

...or

2) You still sound like mashed potatoes with a P-bass through a clean DI. This would suggest that the problem isn't in your personal signal chain but a FOH/mixing issue. This can be a bit more complicated. All rooms are different, especially in the problematic lower frequencies. Do NOT expect to find any "set and forget" eq settings on your mixing desk that will give you a superb bass tone through FOH in every room. That's just not gonna happen. There's a reason why we use professional FOH engineers. Doing your own sound will always be a compromise, especially if you don't have much experience doing live sound. Maybe you could hire a FOH engineer? At least for a while until you get more experience with live sound?

F.S.Sorrow thank you for the insight! I could definitely try something other than the Tone Hammer. I also have an MXR M81 preamp/ DI that is very neutral when set flat. Would that work along the lines you are suggesting?

 

[Lardass5000]

Stop scooping mids

 

[BassMic_84]

Overhyped subs (a huge problem in modern live sound) and possibly over-scooped mids in the house mix. Common among engineers who want the kick to dominate and the bass to be felt more than heard. The Tone Hammer has a lot of power to overcome that with the sweepable mids, if you're sending any sort of post-EQ signal. I used to go direct using no amp for a long time using just a Tone Hammer and it worked great. Powerful sound and no issue at all with a 'strong' signal. I generally ran gain and volume each at noon to start with, and goosed the gain a little for more presence. I never found 'AGS' to be useful. The standard setting, but with careful adjustments to the gain and volume, were more than enough to make it shine in the FOH. The only thing I used to massage on the mids were any 'woofy' points. I generally was playing a Lakland 44-02 or 55-01 and was using the Tone Hammer just to fine tune for FOH and stage.... never any major EQ adjustments, and generally a post-EQ signal unless the FOH specifically said no to that. Never had ANY complaints.

JazznFunk thank you for the input. Overhyped subs is a new term I'm hearing here, but I think it perfectly explains why I've been so disappointed with many shows I've been out to see the last few years. And these are major touring bands. Just massive, overwhelming loads of low end. Maybe I'm just getting older

 

[BassMic_84]

One possible explanation: When you close off your ears it creates a resonance. The term for this is occlusion effect. The resonance distorts the frequency response.

EQ can be applied to get a more natural sound. I believe high-end hearing aids have a means of measuring the frequency response and then applying corrective EQ.

So I suggest spending some time to try and build an EQ curve in the mirror image of your occlusion effect. If the mixer has EQ on the monitor outputs, apply the curve there.

I also suggest learning how to use and applying limiting on the output of each IEM mix. In order for the limiting to work well, you need to make sure the signal levels have the right relationship to the compressor threshold. To do this well requires knowledge, attention, and skill...but IMHO it is absolutely essential.

The limiter ratio should be as close as possible to a brick wall. Also the level and threshold should be set where the limiter engages when the signal goes slightly above the expected peak value. In other words, during a performance the limiter should only engage on rare occasion. But if feedback or some other accidently occurs, the limiter should immediately clamp the signal to prevent hearing damage. In order for this to work, you have to run your IEMs at a safe level.

Most people find it much easier to hear with stereo IEM mixes. But stereo requires more resources and is more work. I suggest putting bass instruments in the center. If you sing, your voice should also be at or near the center. Pan everyting else in 3-5dB intervals. Max panning for most sound sources should typically be no more than about 15dB L/R. You may find some sound sources that work panned 20dB or more, like a nice stereo reverb or possibly overhead drum mics.

The reason to avoid hard panning is something called binaural summation. If you hear a sound equally in both ears it is perceived 6dB louder than if you only hear it in one ear. Panning opens up the sound stage so you can hear more clearly, but hard panning requires you to turn up a sound source as much as 6dB.

Very interesting, thank you! I will be doing some reading on occlusion effect.

 

[DonaldR]

I treat this type of thing like mixing.

If I'm the sound guy, I get a couple recordings I really like and know of the appropriate genre and energy that I'd like for the live sound.

Test them through the PA. Make sure it sounds good and not boomy. EQ the main channels if the known good recording is not sounding good in the room.

Exactly this. Start by learning your PA and make it sounds good with recorded music (and don't use mp3).
Once your recorded music sounds good in your rehearsing space, then start mixing.

*** Do the exact same thing in every space your are playing ***