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Struggle with live bass tone

BassMic_84

BassMic_84

Feb 8, 2023
24
33
#1
Hello. Looking for some advice on getting an articulate live bass sound. I am currently playing in a country/rock cover band. I am currently playing through a Tone Hammer DI direct to the board. I generally play a Fender P or J, but sometimes play a G&L L2000 as well.

Before joining this band I've only played in smaller groups where only the vocals were assisted by a PA. We were on the quieter side and our amps could hold their own. Playing through just my amp, the tone was deep and present, but also articulate, defined and full of nuance.

In this bigger (and louder) band, my tone is about as articulate as mashed potatoes. Sure, there's a deep sonic presence, but nothing else. The bands system is not lacking. Allen and Heath QU16 through a pair of QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops. I care much more about definition than shaking the rafters. I try to dial up a little grit with the Tone Hammer, but it still sounds so bland compared to pushing my cab. We do our own sound and I will admit we are definitely green at it.

If anyone has ever been in the same boat and figured it out, or has better live sound experience I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!
 
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#3
Sub-Frequency thanks for the reply . We've all made the switch to in ears, so very low stage volume. I struggle with the in ears, but that's a different story all together . My first concern is FOH. I've been reading about different techniques, such as aux fed subs where, from what I understand, I'd have more control over both the low end and upper ends of the spectrum. But as it is right now, I'm just a bit frustrated with how lifeless the bass sounds through the pa. The only way I can think to describe the sound I hear in my head is "pushed", if that makes sense. But to get that "pushed", or "driven", focused sound out of this PA has alluded me. Thanks again.
 
#5
Perhaps the problem is poor EQ technique, like every instrument and vocalist delivering a full-range signal to the speakers. This always ends up with every signal source (instruments and voices) with too much low end. Might sound good if they were each a solo act, but it doesn’t work in a band setting. With multiple instruments and voices. You just end up with mush for the low end.

Try high-passing every channel except the drums at 200 Hz or so, and see if that doesn’t make a difference.

Research “frequency slotting.”

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Pedulla Club #45 Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Official Tobias Club #133
Administrator, Fretless Club #943
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My Basses
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
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#7
Hey OP, all these suggestions are right on. If you guys are new at running sound, you will need to spend some time on band EQing (slotting frequencies) so there is sonic room for everyone. HPF (and LPF for bass) are good tools too. I would add that you might try adding a cab sim to your signal chain. Your TH DI is a good starting point as long as you have mastered it's somewhat unusual gain/volume and EQ arrangement. With a pure DI signal, what can often be missing is how a cab represents the sound of both your bass and your amp (in this case your TH DI). Digging into cab sims (which are kind of very complex EQ curves) might help clear up/define your tone thru the PA.

Sounds like you have a reasonably decent PA to work with, so that's a very good starting point. Not sure if you've tried it, but most of the prosumer digital mixers have common presets for instruments, including bass. If you haven't worked with your A&H version of that, it could be a good staring point.

good luck
 
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#8
My guess is the subs are hyped. The first step is to balance the subs and mains for flat response. Then if you want more or less bass, the tone should be adjusted on the bass channel strip.

As an audio tech, I normally prefer for the bass to plug into a flat response DI. This approach means I get a signal straight off the bass and don't have to deal with any changes the bassist make to his/here gain structure or tone controls.

But in your case, I would suggest some sort of preamp DI. The reason is because mixers are not typically set up so you can adjust your bass's tone in the monitors separately from the main PA speakers. Usually sends are set up so the monitors get a flat signal from each send, or the EQ used to dial your sound into the mains is also applied to the sends. Neither is optimum.

With a preamp DI and the Monitor sends set pre EQ, you can dial in your bass to sound nice in the IEMs, and then the audio tech can apply additional EQ to shape your sound for the main mix. This means you have controls at your finger tips to dial in your sound, rather than trying to explain to the audio tech what you want. You may still need to negotiate with the audio tech if you use a lot of EQ.

There may be other options as well. Some digital board allow you to dual assign the channels across different fader levels. In other words input 1 is dual assigned to Channel 1 and Channel 17; Input 2 is dual assigned to Channel 2 and Channel 18; etc. The fader level A (channels 1-16) is used for mains and fader level B (channels 17-32) is used for monitors. I don't know if this is possible with the Qu16, but I have mixed on Yamaha LS9s setup this way...It was cool and very useful, but also labor intensive and a bit confusing.

Another possibility is some digital mixers allow you to connect monitor mixers that take the signal off a buss that is before the channels. It's essentially like patching a bunch of small mixers to a split snake. For example Behringer has the PowerPlay system with allows each P16-M to control EQ and levels for 16 inputs from a Bus system called Ultranet.
 
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#10
Wasnex said:
My guess is the subs are hyped. The first step is to balance the subs and mains for flat response. Then if you want more or less bass, the tone should be adjusted on the bass channel strip.

As an audio tech, I normally prefer for the bass to plug into a flat response DI. This approach means I get a signal straight off the bass and don't have to deal with any changes the bassist make to his/here gain structure or tone controls.

But in your case, I would suggest some sort of preamp DI. The reason is because mixers are not typically set up so you can adjust your bass's tone in the monitors separately from the main PA speakers. Usually sends are set up so the monitors get a flat signal from each send, or the EQ used to dial your sound into the mains is also applied to the sends. Neither is optimum.

With a preamp DI and the Monitor sends set pre EQ, you can dial in your bass to sound nice in the IEMs, and then the audio tech can apply additional EQ to shape your sound for the main mix. This means you have controls at your finger tips to dial in your sound, rather than trying to explain to the audio tech what you want. You may still need to negotiate with the audio tech if you use a lot of EQ.

There may be other options as well. Some digital board allow you to dual assign the channels across different fader levels. In other words input 1 is dual assigned to Channel 1 and Channel 17; Input 2 is dual assigned to Channel 2 and Channel 18; etc. The fader level A (channels 1-16) is used for mains and fader level B (channels 17-32) is used for monitors. I don't know if this is possible with the Qu16, but I have mixed on Yamaha LS9s setup this way...It was cool and very useful, but also labor intensive and a bit confusing.

Another possibility is some digital mixers allow you to connect monitor mixers that take the signal off a buss that is before the channels. It's essentially like patching a bunch of small mixers to a split snake. For example Behringer has the PowerPlay system with allows each P16-M to control EQ and levels for 16 inputs from a Bus system called Ultranet.
Click to expand...
the OP mentoned that band are running their own sound (no sound tech) and they are not very experienced at it. That's certainly part of the problem, but there have been some suggestions on how to improve things a bit.
 
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#11
The Tone Hammer DI bass knob is broadband 40 hz centered, so you could try cutting it back as a "HPF" of sort. Also turn the mid freq know all the way counter clockwise (180 Hz) and cut back the mids and start slightly sweeping the knob up until you start to hear things clearing up.

There's a lot of Hooty, woofy, cardboardy, wooly, and many other adjetives to sound in that 150-300 Hz range. Depending on the room they resonate and create a hell of a mess.

Don't be afraid of using very extreme EQ to solve problems live. Cutting problems is always better than boosting solutions.
 
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#13
Last edited:
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#14
You probably need to do the opposite of aux subs with those QSCs, which would be to get something like a DriveRack PA2 and the matching dbx measurement mic. You run the "wizard" before each show once the PA is set up, and then does some signal sweeps with the mic in different prescribed positions, and then will EQ the response of the subs and mains to tailor them to the room.

With a relatively flatter PA response, the bass should sound a lot more normal. QSC subs tend to be very boomy and have certain extreme resonant frequencies which make it really hard to get a nice volume on any channels that have decent low end to them. You could confirm this by playing back pre recorded music on the current setup/configuration. My guess is it will sound kind of bassy but somehow lack body at the same time. You could also just try lowering the overall level of the subs relative to the mains, until things sound more natural.

If you don't have the 600 or so for the DriveRack and mic, the Qu 16 has a GEQ and PEQ on every single output. Try dumping every band from about 200 on down, while playing pre-recorded music and/or bass, and you will probably find 1 or more that really open the sound up when you take them away. I wouldn't ultimately cut any of those bands all the way, but you could try starting with 3-5 db of cut and see where that gets you. Also, if you find say 60 Hz is giving you issues, you can cut a bit less at 120, 240, etc... (or whatever bands are closest), cutting less and less as you go up each octave.
 
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#18
Get a good sound tech to come in and help you out. Worth the extra expense. With the Tonehammer, I agree with some others, engage the AGS, lower your bass, sweep for a mid freq. that you like to boost a bit. Keep the gain low to avoid excessive over-drive and the AGS circuit can clean things up nicely. I play in a country-ish jam band and I cringe when I see subs!
 
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#19
Mike Caldwell said:
Bring in a good sound tech for a gig or two to come in and straighten out your system and get a good base line mix put together and save those scenes.
Click to expand...

My Original Band back in 2002-2009 had IEM setup no Amps on stage and very Good PA[FOH] Allen Heath/Mackie
I did Sound [first time for me] put a lot of work and Studying into it.

Was able to get CD Quality IEM and Great tone/dynamics for Guitars, Drums and Vocals but Bass was as OP describes after a few gig's just went with SWR Head and 4x10 Goliath not behind me but on line with PA in the middle between them; worked great

BUT I should have done what you suggested; I have heard many Bands with same setup where Bass sounds excellent coming from FOH
 
#20
BassMic_84 said:
Hello. Looking for some advice on getting an articulate live bass sound. I am currently playing in a country/rock cover band. I am currently playing through a Tone Hammer DI direct to the board. I generally play a Fender P or J, but sometimes play a G&L L2000 as well.

Before joining this band I've only played in smaller groups where only the vocals were assisted by a PA. We were on the quieter side and our amps could hold their own. Playing through just my amp, the tone was deep and present, but also articulate, defined and full of nuance.

In this bigger (and louder) band, my tone is about as articulate as mashed potatoes. Sure, there's a deep sonic presence, but nothing else. The bands system is not lacking. Allen and Heath QU16 through a pair of QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops. I care much more about definition than shaking the rafters. I try to dial up a little grit with the Tone Hammer, but it still sounds so bland compared to pushing my cab. We do our own sound and I will admit we are definitely green at it.

If anyone has ever been in the same boat and figured it out, or has better live sound experience I'd love to hear from you! Thanks!
Click to expand...
Perhaps, I may have missed something; but, if you are all using IEM’s, the stage mix shouldn’t matter.:thumbsdown:

Are you asking for how to get good bass tone running through the board to the mains? A bit more clarity would help the discussion.

If the issue is the FOH bass sound; the first thing there is that you have to put a bit of effort into your signal chain, both in your send and within the board itself. I’d suggest getting a 2 hour time slot with whoever keeps the board at their house or studio, and work through the various parts of that signal chain.

Once your signal chain is sorted, the next step is the send to the mains from the board. My vast pref is to dial in a good bass sound in the mains without the subs, and then bring up just enough of the subs to warm the tone up to your liking; and you will have to sort out both sub levels and crossover points, if you can control those from the board. Don’t let a learner SE just solely put the bass into the subs. Probably not the case, but that has happened to me.

As you said, the IEM part of the equation is whole nother discussion. Good luck.
 
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