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Studio Monitors

REV

Jun 18, 2006
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I recently did a studio gig where they had me play in the control room instead of out in the studio so I was listening to myself through the studio monitors. What a sound!!
The monitors were JBL 708P's. I'm not normally a fan of JBL speakers but these things sounded gorgeous. The best way I could describe the sound is "crisp". I was thinking that it would be great to have a speaker setup that had the same clarity that these monitors had but that could hold up to bass guitar. I don't even know if this is a practical idea. I don't know if the sound of the studio monitors would work well in a band setting. Anybody out there have any experience with something like this?
 
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I recently did a studio gig where they had me play in the control room instead of out in the studio so I was listening to myself through the studio monitors. What a sound!!
The monitors were JBL 708P's. I'm not normally a fan of JBL speakers but these things sounded gorgeous. The best way I could describe the sound is "crisp". I was thinking that it would be great to have a speaker setup that had the same clarity that these monitors had but that could hold up to bass guitar. I don't even know if this is a practical idea. I don't know if the sound of the studio monitors would work well in a band setting. Anybody out there have any experience with something like this?

I think a FRFR bass cab like the Barefaced Big Baby 3 or Big Twin 3 would get you there.
 
Let's see... you were probably plugged into a good direct box, directly into a studio-grade preamp and channel strip equalization, played back through a $4K pair of highly engineered, bi-amped studio monitors, in what was probably a fairly optimal acoustic environment? I'm thinking that particular experience might be difficult to replicate in a live situation. :D Having said that, @gtirard's suggestions are good... or maybe something like a Genzler bass array cab might get you there. But the so-called FRFR world is where you want to look. Six or eight of those JBL 708s would probably be loud enough for using in a live setting.
 
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The control room acoustics are optimized for monitoring. It’s hard to top that sound. Many studio monitors are also calibrated to have a flat response so that they don’t contribute to the EQ during mixing. Some aren’t, they highlight certain issues such as at high end. EQ is dialed back just below an intolerable sound. That one way that the popular Yamaha NS-10M’s were used.
 
If your intended purpose is in a live band setting, then a hi-fi speaker cabinet is not only unnecessary, but usually undesirable.

A bass sounds like a bass because it emphasizes certain frequency bands and deemphasizes others. A speaker cabinet that has a studio like flat frequency response will sound unnatural.

There's an even more practical aspect - unless you're in a room that can support the accuracy of a studio monitor, you're simply not going to hear the difference.
 
If your intended purpose is in a live band setting, then a hi-fi speaker cabinet is not only unnecessary, but usually undesirable.

A bass sounds like a bass because it emphasizes certain frequency bands and deemphasizes others. A speaker cabinet that has a studio like flat frequency response will sound unnatural.
Like a PA? Because that's what the audience hears...the PA
 
There are cabs out there that are clear and neutral (e.g., Barefaced, PJB) and such a thing would be a step in that direction (depending on what you normally play through) but there's a lot more going on than just the cab used. Even if you had infinite resources and could achieve an acoustically perfect cab (i.e,, perfectly flat FR, great dispersion, no distortion), it still wouldn't sound in a band context like what you heard in the studio.
 
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Anybody out there have any experience with something like this?

I plugged my bass into my modest little stereo back in the lates 70s/early 80s. Went down the rabbit hole trying to find a way achieve a similar tone live. Spent quite a bit of money and learned a thing or two, but to this day I have not realized the dream. About the closet I have gotten is running a DI into a mixing console and monitoring on headphones.

My observations: Musical instrument gear tends to reproduce a lot more detail in the mids than HiFi gear. HiFi gear sounds pretty in the mids, but it tends to smooth out them out, so there is less texture to the sound. To be fair, some of the texture can come from the MI speakers themselves.

Conversely musical instrument gear tends to be woolly and loose down low in comparison to HiFi gear. With HiFi, the lows seem tighter and more focused, but are also smooth.

I have played on some pretty high-end PA gear and none of it seemed to reproduce the same qualities I heard in HiFi gear. I have assembled a few rigs that achieved some of the qualities I was after, but not all.

For the proceeding I am basically saying that there seems to be some tangible differences in the way HiFi and MI gear speaks that is independent of frequency response.

The other factor is acoustics. One of the most frustrating aspects of playing live is how much masking you have to deal with. By masking, I mean other sounds obscuring the nuance and detail in your tone.

My understanding is when there are two sound sources playing the same frequency, you only perceive the louder of the two sound sources. So you have to deal with other instruments invading the frequency range of the bass and concealing nuance and detail.

Not only do you have to deal with masking from other instruments, I believe the indirect sound from your own rig can mask nuance and detail in your tone. The worse the acoustics are, the more severe masking tends to be.

Play live through a system that can reproduce that same tone as a studio monitor at an appropriate level, and I think the bass will tend to get lost. Bedroom tone syndrome. In order for your sound to cut through the mayhem, you have to find away to get the frequencies you key off to dominate in your ears. I do this by elevating my cab and aiming it at my head. I also tend to boost certain frequencies that I think sound good. I tend to run fairly lean lows, because to my ears more lows reduces clarity and focus. I don't claim that my tone on stage is great, but using this approach allows me to monitor at a lower volume, so my stage sound is not competing with the PA as much.

My stage rig is intended solely as my personal monitor and not intended to be a sound source for the main mix. I typically plug my bass into a DI. This way the audio tech gets a neutral/unprocessed signal from my bass that is easier to massage into shape

Probably one of the best things I ever did as a player is stop insistently chasing tone. I find it very rare to achieve what I consider to be a really great tone in a live setting. As a result, chasing tone tends to be distracting and frustrating. Better to spend a bit of time dialing in a reasonably good tone and then change your focus to playing. My point is you can probably get your tone to about 95% as good as possible within a few minutes. To achieve the additional 5% may require you to constantly fuss with the controls as the situation changes.

Unfortunately each situation is different, so a 95% solution one day may sound pretty good, while a 95% solution on another day may sound awful. So it can be tricky to recognize when you have done about all you can.
 
I should say that with my uber clean, transparent, and LOUD Wayne Jones 1000w powered 2X10 (very nearly as flat and clean as my Alon and KEF hi-fi speakers); my bass sounds to me somewhat sterile and not what I've become comfortable with (playing since the 70's) unless I use a pre-amp or cab sim. The tone shaping that most bass cabs give adds quite a bit to the feel and heft of the instrument in a band mix. Also need to add that the cab itself is AMAZING (as per the reviews).
 
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I plugged my bass into my modest little stereo back in the lates 70s/early 80s. Went down the rabbit hole trying to find a way achieve a similar tone live. Spent quite a bit of money and learned a thing or two, but to this day I have not realized the dream. About the closet I have gotten is running a DI into a mixing console and monitoring on headphones.

My observations: Musical instrument gear tends to reproduce a lot more detail in the mids than HiFi gear. HiFi gear sounds pretty in the mids, but it tends to smooth out them out, so there is less texture to the sound. To be fair, some of the texture can come from the MI speakers themselves.

Conversely musical instrument gear tends to be woolly and loose down low in comparison to HiFi gear. With HiFi, the lows seem tighter and more focused, but are also smooth.

I have played on some pretty high-end PA gear and none of it seemed to reproduce the same qualities I heard in HiFi gear. I have assembled a few rigs that achieved some of the qualities I was after, but not all.

For the proceeding I am basically saying that there seems to be some tangible differences in the way HiFi and MI gear speaks that is independent of frequency response.

The other factor is acoustics. One of the most frustrating aspects of playing live is how much masking you have to deal with. By masking, I mean other sounds obscuring the nuance and detail in your tone.

My understanding is when there are two sound sources playing the same frequency, you only perceive the louder of the two sound sources. So you have to deal with other instruments invading the frequency range of the bass and concealing nuance and detail.

Not only do you have to deal with masking from other instruments, I believe the indirect sound from your own rig can mask nuance and detail in your tone. The worse the acoustics are, the more severe masking tends to be.

I agree with all of this. This is one of the most comprehensive replies I have ever received on Talkbass.
Thank You. You have most likely saved me a lot of time, money and aggravation.
Play live through a system that can reproduce that same tone as a studio monitor at an appropriate level, and I think the bass will tend to get lost. Bedroom tone syndrome. In order for your sound to cut through the mayhem, you have to find away to get the frequencies you key off to dominate in your ears. I do this by elevating my cab and aiming it at my head. I also tend to boost certain frequencies that I think sound good. I tend to run fairly lean lows, because to my ears more lows reduces clarity and focus. I don't claim that my tone on stage is great, but using this approach allows me to monitor at a lower volume, so my stage sound is not competing with the PA as much.

My stage rig is intended solely as my personal monitor and not intended to be a sound source for the main mix. I typically plug my bass into a DI. This way the audio tech gets a neutral/unprocessed signal from my bass that is easier to massage into shape

Probably one of the best things I ever did as a player is stop insistently chasing tone. I find it very rare to achieve what I consider to be a really great tone in a live setting. As a result, chasing tone tends to be distracting and frustrating. Better to spend a bit of time dialing in a reasonably good tone and then change your focus to playing. My point is you can probably get your tone to about 95% as good as possible within a few minutes. To achieve the additional 5% may require you to constantly fuss with the controls as the situation changes.

Unfortunately each situation is different, so a 95% solution one day may sound pretty good, while a 95% solution on another day may sound awful. So it can be tricky to recognize when you have done about all you can.
 
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You should go for it if you really want to. But here's my take. The bass player from Phish has all sorts of arrays and sound processing and what not and still sound wise I am not moved by that setup live. Even though I am not a fan, it's not that - just objective listening to that massive hi-fi setup

I do not have a 4K JBL pair but I think my Yamaha HS8's are not bad for my tiny recording space. I was never inspired practicing through those monitors. After the a while the hi-fi and crispiness give me ear fatigue.
 
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Like a PA? Because that's what the audience hears...the PA

Ideally, you'll be using a HPF plus using some additional EQ to tailor the sound to alter certain frequencies. In most live situations, generally for the electric bass, anything above 5,000 or 6,000 Hz is useless, while anything below about 50 Hz is usually undesirable.

As an experienced live sound tech and studio recording, mixing, and mastering tech, I know that when listening to an isolated bass track* it doesn't sound very hifi at all.

The entire band when mixed together sounds awesome in the PA (when it's mixed properly, of course) but the bass itself doesn't need all that frequency space. If you want to spend extra money for a more complicated bass cabinet that's studio quality flat from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, then there's no reason why you can't have that. It's your money.

But it's completely unnecessary, and if you're using it to reproduce sound below 50 Hz or so, then you're almost certainly creating problems for the room mix (usually by interfering with the kick drum) and also wasting a lot of amplifier power for nothing.

In a live setting, most bassists are only using their cabinet as a stage monitor for their bass, anyway. So, if you think it sounds better to your ears as the bassist, then by all means, get a hi-fi cabinet. But literally nobody else in the room will care, or even notice.

By the way, I've experimented with hifi cabinets for bass before. I have a pair of 15" 3 way cabs that have a flat frequency response from 35 Hz to 22,000 Hz. The bass sounds unnatural and weird.






* Unless you're Les Claypool. His isolated bass tracks take up the full frequency spectrum. But most people aren't Les Claypool.
 
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Anybody out there have any experience with something like this?

Like you, I have played in the control room listening to some massive monitors. I only wish I could get an amp that sounded like cranked studio monitors.

For the last 20+ years I’ve made my peace with some Bergantino 1-12 cabs.

I have not realized the dream. About the closet I have gotten is running a DI into a mixing console and monitoring on headphones.

I DI into an audio interface for silent practice at home. While not bone crushing like cranked monitors, it is a sound I really like. If I add an amp sim it doesn’t sound as good to me.
 
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