• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Summoning Elite Troubleshooters

For what it’s worth, the no-hum quality of my EMG solderless GZR pickups varied greatly across the three different basses that I have them installed in. One so bad I did the full-on copper tape shielding — and in another bass this was totally unnecessary.
My buzz issues didn’t stop entirely, however, until I installed new grounded outlets in my practice area AND started using a Furman power conditioner (plugged into the new outlets) AND started powering any pedals using a OneSpot Pro CS7 (plugged into the Furman, plugged into the new outlets.) Oh, and also eliminating as many computer and appliance power adapters on premises as possible.
 
Last edited:
I hear you. The wiring in my home is truly ridiculous. It was a hard lesson learned as I continue to discover how "Industry Standards", "Up to Code" and "Legal" have little to do with "Quality" or "Legitimately Effective". Installing a ground rod won't be enough. This place needs gutting.

That said, the cost is not worth it. I'm already looking at other towns.
There is also the safety issue. Like say you are playing bass and there is a power surge and your amplifier is ungrounded, I'm not an electrician, but I think you would risk being electrocuted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crosscheck67
It is a good question, for sure.

True single coil Jazz pickups are reverse wound and reverse (magnetic) polarity from each other such that they form a humbucking pair of coils (when both pickups are on at equal volumes). So, any winding or size differences aside, the bridge and neck pickups are distinct from each other and you need one of each to get a humbucking pair. If you ended up with two neck pickups, they would be in phase with each other and produce a good signal, but the noise would not be rejected.

Many aftermarket pickups (including the EMG, Bartolini, and 96 art models shown in this thread) are "self humbucking" in that the single pickup is comprised of two coils that are internally connected in a way that rejects noise. This is typically done by putting two full-height but half-length coils in line with each other (96 art, bartolini, nordstrand, Dimarzio, EMG and Seymour Duncan in some models, etc) or by stacking two full length but half height coils on top of each other (EMG in some of their models, Fender in some models, Seymour Duncan and Dimarzio in some models, etc). At any rate, humbucking J's are not position-specific in the humbucking sense. You can use two necks and they will still reject the same amount of noise as if you have a proper neck and bridge pair.

So, essentially, the "two left shoes" thing is only really possible if you're using legitimate single coil pickups.
Unfortunately, we don't know what EMG does inside their sealed pickups. They may also just be inverting the phase at the internal preamp stage, which amounts to the same thing as a reverse wound coil.
 
Years ago I took a couple EMGs apart. If you boil them for 5 or 10 minutes the epoxy gets soft enough that you can cut and peel it away like hard foam rubber. I was inspired to try it after seeing a bunch of photos of one of their pickups taken apart that were floating around in the early days of the internet. I didn't attempt to reassemble any of the ones I took apart but I know it has been done successfully by others. Not something I would ever do on purpose these days, especially since EMG is so good about support. But it was kinda fun, and educational. At any rate, their "single coil" Jazz pickups are a single blade with two coils wound around it, one on top of the other.

I know we're off on a tangent that isn't really helping solve the original problem, but hopefully these details are interesting/useful in some way to someone!
 
Years ago I took a couple EMGs apart. If you boil them for 5 or 10 minutes the epoxy gets soft enough that you can cut and peel it away like hard foam rubber. I was inspired to try it after seeing a bunch of photos of one of their pickups taken apart that were floating around in the early days of the internet. I didn't attempt to reassemble any of the ones I took apart but I know it has been done successfully by others. Not something I would ever do on purpose these days, especially since EMG is so good about support. But it was kinda fun, and educational. At any rate, their "single coil" Jazz pickups are a single blade with two coils wound around it, one on top of the other.

I know we're off on a tangent that isn't really helping solve the original problem, but hopefully these details are interesting/useful in some way to someone!
So it sounds like they are actually a humbucker. Did you note what the preamp circuit was?
 
I did but I lost that notebook a long time ago. I bet there are other people out there sharing it on the internet. The coils are in parallel and the preamps are really simple and (surprisingly) not symmetrical. I'm pretty convinced that's what gives EMGs their typical signature EMG tone - fairly low output coils, in parallel, with lopsided preamps. It struck me as a hybrid between a phantom coil and a legitimate symmetrical humbucker. The lower coil is probably contributing almost nothing to the actual signal but acts to buck hum and maybe color the tone a little. I've thought about trying to duplicate it but I am not sure there's a huge market out there for active pickups and EMG has it very well cornered already.
 
So I was thinking back to testing my son's Ibanez SRF700 in the same conditions. Clearly no ground, yet no hum.

The EMGs are (sort of) humbuckers due to the stacks. The 96 art and Bart I tested are split coil, hence humbucking.

The soap bars in the Ibanez are Bartolini MK-1 and are the quietest of the four, whether blended or independent. Definitely humbucking, definitely not the best sounding.

What makes the MK-1s so impervious to the unrelenting amount of RF and lack of grounding at my place?
 
The second coil of wire can't do anything but be a parallel coil that's stacked. A phantom coil requires that no magnet be inside the coil, otherwise it'll generate signal. It cannot be a humbucker because, being on the same magnet, the magnet poles can't be reversed inside the second coil.

So it's a stacked parallel pickup.

Change my mind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crosscheck67
The soap bars in the Ibanez are Bartolini MK-1 and are the quietest of the four, whether blended or independent. Definitely humbucking, definitely not the best sounding.

What makes the MK-1s so impervious to the unrelenting amount of RF and lack of grounding at my place?
They're dual coil humbuckers, IMO the most bucking of all hummers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crosscheck67
The second coil of wire can't do anything but be a parallel coil that's stacked. A phantom coil requires that no magnet be inside the coil, otherwise it'll generate signal. It cannot be a humbucker because, being on the same magnet, the magnet poles can't be reversed inside the second coil.

So it's a stacked parallel pickup.

Change my mind.

That's not really true. The stacked coil design is definitely 100% a true humbucker.

When you're talking about humbucking, you can literally ignore the magnet. Forget it exists. It does not matter in terms of how the coils pick up noise, and humbucking is all about taking advantage of the noise signal produced by two separate coils. To humbuck, all you need to do is have the two coils pick up noise that's out of phase. When you have two coils that are physically oriented the same, to make them humbucking you reverse the wind direction, (or reverse the leads) such that current flows in the opposite direction. Reversing the leads effectively reverses the wind direction, so either way you end up with two coils that are effectively reverse wound. Noise will generate a signal (current) in both. In one of them, it goes "left to right" and in the other it goes "right to left" and as such the two currents cancel each other out and the net current (outside the pickup, to your controls) is zero. (it's an AC current of course, so it's really phase and not direction, but you get the point).

That's how all humbuckers work, magnetic field or not. You can take the magnet out of a pickup, or put in two magnets, or put the magnet in sideways, or whatever you want, and the pickup will still buck hum.

The magnet is only important in terms of the coils picking up the signal from the string. Noise creates a signal in wire whether there's a magnetic field or not. Strings can only create a signal if there's a magnetic field, and both the string and the coil are in the same magnetic field. The phase (direction) of the current is determined both by the direction of the coil wind, AND the relationship between the string and the magnetic field AND the coil and the magnetic field. Does anyone remember the "right hand rule" from high school physics? It helps you remember the direction the current will flow when a conductor is moving in a magnetic field. If you want both coils to contribute to the signal, and you want the contributions to not cancel each other out, and the coils are reverse wound, you need them to be in opposite polarity magnetic fields. Magnets have a north and south end, and every magnetic field has regions oriented towards both, so even with a single magnet you can still have humbucking coils. In a stacked coil humbucker like the EMGs, the two coils are essentially sitting on either end of the magnet - one is wrapped around the north pole and one around the south pole (pickup magnets are magnetized "sideways" compared to most typical general-use magnets). So they're not in equivalent positions magnetically even though they're on the same magnet.

At any rate, in a stacked coil pickup, the bottom coil is so far away from the strings that it typically barely contributes to the signal anyways, and generally has a bigger contribution just by loading down the top coil (because of the resistance in the coil) rather than actually adding signal. So ultimately it doesn't matter if it's magnetically in the right phase or not, since it basically only exists to create an out of polarity noise signal and also color the tone a little by loading down the top coil. This is why a stacked coil design often sounds weaker and middier than a side-by-side humbucker, you're really only getting one coil's worth of signal plus a little frosting on top. But considering EMG's design with the built in preamps, they're able to compensate for that and still get the tone they want, compared to some other stacked coil designs which have generally been much less popular (usually because they sound a little weak). Lots of brands have tried to make stacked coil pickups (especially for the strat/tele market) and they have generally not caught on very well.

EMG on the other hand have done a really good job of making a comprehensive design where every choice was made with the whole design in mind, rather than just slapping a preamp on an existing pickup design. They basically wrote the book on how to make a good sounding stacked coil pickup. One of the Turners (I forget which one) worked at Fender prior to EMG and had worked on the (stacked coil!) Fender noiseless pickup designs. It's pretty easy to see their current stacked coil designs as the evolved version of the Fender pickups.
 
I never pondered pickup design before this thread. Now I think about it every day. Question:

I'm assuming soap bars are all dual coil humbuckers. I'm stressing "assuming" here. If that's true, what would happen if instead, they were two really wide and fat stacked coils? Would it offer more surface to handle tone by the upper stack, while leaving the lower stack to do the bucking and possibly add a little tone?
 
@dwizum OK, I think you changed my mind. Thanks for the comprehensive rundown.

I was of the mind that humbucking required a reverse phase magnet as well. I wasn't considering that the magnet's polarity could be upright rather than laid down.

In my scenario, it didn't account for why XLR lo-z cables can hum reject. My explanation would require a magnet.

Still, in my mind are traditional j bass pickups where the bridge pickup's phase is completely reversed. Having wired a lot of pj basses, ask me how I know.

I also thought that stacked humbuckers contained two magnets. I should have known better, because those electronics guys are really slippery.

On another note, what do you think of Lace pickup's ability to reject hum ?

Thanks again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crosscheck67
I never pondered pickup design before this thread. Now I think about it every day. Question:

I'm assuming soap bars are all dual coil humbuckers. I'm stressing "assuming" here. If that's true, what would happen if instead, they were two really wide and fat stacked coils? Would it offer more surface to handle tone by the upper stack, while leaving the lower stack to do the bucking and possibly add a little tone?
Soap bars are traditionally single coil. The coil is just wider than like a jazz pickup. Humcancelling "single" coil pickups are what you describe. They really are not single coil.
 
I never pondered pickup design before this thread. Now I think about it every day. Question:

I'm assuming soap bars are all dual coil humbuckers. I'm stressing "assuming" here. If that's true, what would happen if instead, they were two really wide and fat stacked coils? Would it offer more surface to handle tone by the upper stack, while leaving the lower stack to do the bucking and possibly add a little tone?

Soapbars come in all kinds of configurations. Many humbucking soapbars are two coils next to each other. This works well because each coil is sending all strings, so it adds flexibility if you want to coil split. It also made sense in an evolutionary sense since it copies the layout of the original PAF humbucker that Seth Lover designed for Gibson. Some soapbars are just that brand's J or P in a different shell, with lots of extra space around it. Some are actually 4 coils, basically two inline humbucking jazz pickups stuck next to each other. The list goes on. Look at bsrtolini's page for soapbars, they have illustrations of the coils in each model which help visualize all this:

Bass Soapbars - Bartolini Pickups & Electronics

Nordstrand make the Fat Stack pickup which is basically want you describe. It's a really fat stacked coil design in a soapbar shell. They do sound pretty good.

The different configurations are really driven by tone and flexibility. A soapbar shell is like a blank canvas for a pickup designer - there's a ton of room and just about anything you can imagine will fit. It's a much more flexible shape than a Jazz pickup for example. It's hard to do anything in a jazz shell that doesn't sound like a jazz bass. Which brings up a good point. Pickup tone discussions often focus on things like magnet type and number of winds of wire, or DC resistance as a proxy for winds. When in reality, the format dictates the baseline tone and then those factors just modify it. A short fat coil (P bass) sounds different from a tall skinny coil (Jazz bass) no matter how many turns you put on or what magnet you use.

@dwizum OK, I think you changed my mind. Thanks for the comprehensive rundown.

I was of the mind that humbucking required a reverse phase magnet as well. I wasn't considering that the magnet's polarity could be upright rather than laid down.

In my scenario, it didn't account for why XLR lo-z cables can hum reject. My explanation would require a magnet.

Still, in my mind are traditional j bass pickups where the bridge pickup's phase is completely reversed. Having wired a lot of pj basses, ask me how I know.

I also thought that stacked humbuckers contained two magnets. I should have known better, because those electronics guys are really slippery.

On another note, what do you think of Lace pickup's ability to reject hum ?

Thanks again.

If you want a humbucker where both coils contribute in phase to the tone then yes they need opposite magnetic polarity too! Reverse wound and reverse polarity. This is very often done with only a single physical magnet even in designs other than stacked coils. The Gibson PAF style guitar humbucker has two coils side by side and only a single magnet. And to make things more confusing, some stacked coil humbuckers do contain two magnets and some of those have a steel plate between the coils and magnets to hell shape the field. That's also the basic format of a sidewinder pickup - two coils, each wound directly on a magnet, with a steel plate or slugs between them - but turned on its side instead of vertically stacked.
 
Gear in hand. This weekend will be all about installation and testing. Enjoy a meme a drummer friend sent me:

signal-2021-07-16-114647.jpg
 
I recently jammed at a buddy's house. What a pleasure to play in a location where the electrician knew what he was doing. Perfect ground, no hum.

Ok so I am loving these 96 art pickups @dwizum. The blend in center position is exactly one of the tones I'm after. Still working on dialing in my Bridge-only tone. I might even get to test one or two other designs from them. @bdplaid I dig this Audere Pro Z. Thanks for the recommendation! I like the passive setting the best. I'm so glad I added the extra stacked low & hi mid controls. Huge difference, especially for a scooper like myself. So I ended up with stacked Vol/Blend, Hi-mid/Low-mid, Trebble/Bass. Threw together a comparison video:

 
Glad you like your tone. I love the Audere.
Did it all solve your hum issue? I listened to the test and at times thought I heard some light hum even with the new setup. However, it sounded as though it would be easy to eq out using the Audere.
Anyway, like the sound a lot.
Cheers!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crosscheck67

Latest posts