Summoning Elite Troubleshooters

[dwizum]

The MIA 5 string pickups are distinct sizes - they're not shared with any other format. EMG would have had to literally make a 5 string MIA neck in a 5 string MIA bridge case for this to be wrong. I suppose it's theoretically possible but probably not likely. And it would be a very different kind of mistake than could be possible with the MIM 5 string basses or 4 string Jazz basses which use different sizes (which are shared with other formats, such that the "wrong" pickup would exist in the factory) than 5 string MIAs.

 

[BlueTalon]

I didn't know that. If it's the case, do you think EMG could have missed this when I sent everything back to test on their bench?

Apparently not.

The MIA 5 string pickups are distinct sizes - they're not shared with any other format. EMG would have had to literally make a 5 string MIA neck in a 5 string MIA bridge case for this to be wrong. I suppose it's theoretically possible but probably not likely. And it would be a very different kind of mistake than could be possible with the MIM 5 string basses or 4 string Jazz basses which use different sizes (which are shared with other formats, such that the "wrong" pickup would exist in the factory) than 5 string MIAs.

I did not know that. Other companies such as Bartolini make matched J pickup sets that are both long or both short, of the same length as a regular L/S set. I assumed the EMG Mexican replacement J sets were one of those.

 

[BlueTalon]

The MIA 5 string pickups are distinct sizes - they're not shared with any other format. EMG would have had to literally make a 5 string MIA neck in a 5 string MIA bridge case for this to be wrong. I suppose it's theoretically possible but probably not likely. And it would be a very different kind of mistake than could be possible with the MIM 5 string basses or 4 string Jazz basses which use different sizes (which are shared with other formats, such that the "wrong" pickup would exist in the factory) than 5 string MIAs.

Ah, I either did not know or had forgotten that we're dealing with a 5 string bass & pickups. Everything in my previous couple of posts was written with 4-strings in mind.

 

[dwizum]

Essentially, Jazz pickups come in 4 typical sizes:

3.6" - standard neck for a 4 string Jazz. Also very rarely used in some boutique 5 string basses as a neck pickup. And sometimes used in both positions in some 4 string basses.
3.73" - standard bridge for a 4 string Jazz. Frequently used in both positions in 5 string Jazzes made by lots of brands. Rarely used as a neck position for some 4 string basses.
4" - standard 5 string MIA Fender neck. Used in some other brands in the neck position for 5 string basses. Not often used anywhere else.
4.14" - standard 5 string MIA Fender bridge. Used in some other brands in the bridge position for 5 string basses. Not often used anywhere else.

Essentially, both 3.6" and 3.73" pickups are available in neck, bridge, 4 string, and 5 string versions. It's pretty easy to unintentionally have a "wrong" pickup that fits in a given spot if you have either of those sizes on your bass, since lots of brands make lots of pickups in those two sizes.

4" is almost always just made as a 5 string neck pickup, and 4.14" is almost always just made as a 5 string bridge pickup. So if those are your sizes, it's hard to unintentionally have a wrong pickup that fits. And those are the sizes that the OP has so I don't think the "two left shoes" theory is really likely.

(For the sake of completeness, I've also seen oddball 4.5" Jazz pickups but I honestly don't know what they're made for and I've never actually seen one in an instrument, just as a loose pickup.)

 

[BlueTalon]

Essentially, Jazz pickups come in 4 typical sizes:

3.6" - standard neck for a 4 string Jazz. Also very rarely used in some boutique 5 string basses as a neck pickup. And sometimes used in both positions in some 4 string basses.
3.73" - standard bridge for a 4 string Jazz. Frequently used in both positions in 5 string Jazzes made by lots of brands. Rarely used as a neck position for some 4 string basses.
4" - standard 5 string MIA Fender neck. Used in some other brands in the neck position for 5 string basses. Not often used anywhere else.
4.14" - standard 5 string MIA Fender bridge. Used in some other brands in the bridge position for 5 string basses. Not often used anywhere else.

Essentially, both 3.6" and 3.73" pickups are available in neck, bridge, 4 string, and 5 string versions. It's pretty easy to unintentionally have a "wrong" pickup that fits in a given spot if you have either of those sizes on your bass, since lots of brands make lots of pickups in those two sizes.

4" is almost always just made as a 5 string neck pickup, and 4.14" is almost always just made as a 5 string bridge pickup. So if those are your sizes, it's hard to unintentionally have a wrong pickup that fits. And those are the sizes that the OP has so I don't think the "two left shoes" theory is really likely.

(For the sake of completeness, I've also seen oddball 4.5" Jazz pickups but I honestly don't know what they're made for and I've never actually seen one in an instrument, just as a loose pickup.)

You made me curious, so I checked Warmoth's page for custom ordering a MIM 5-string jazz body to see what pickup options they offer.

 

[byacey]

I didn't know what the physical size of the pickups were, just a thought at that moment in time.

Do the pickup(s) seem to have adequate output compared to each other or with other pickups?
I don't imagine it's very common, but I have seen defective active EMG pickups.

Perhaps it might be worth your time to ship them back to EMG so that they might have a closer look at them.

 

[Crosscheck67]

@BlueTalon Yep...option 5 &6 are my routes.

@byacey Did that. They found nothing.

 

[James Collins]

The fact that you sent the pickup back and the cleared the pickup sort of rules the pickup out to me. The fact that it's still there in every shielding you have done means it's probably not the shielding. The fact that it is there without the other components wired in rules out the pots and preamp.

 

[tylerwylie]

I think @dwizum did a great job of explaining the context of grounds with regards to the Audere preamp, but I just want to emphasize something.

"Directly" is a funny word in this context. As long as your control cavity shielding is connected to the ground lug on your jack, and your pickup cavity shielding is connected to your control cavity shielding, it's all directly connected to each other. Our minds tend to think of something like that as a path connecting things, but it's better to think of it as just one thing by itself.

(You could, if you wanted to, have a wire going from each cavity shield to the ground lug on the jack, but that would create a rat-nest of additional and unneeded wires in your control cavity. I strongly recommend that you don't want to do that.)

One test I do to see if everything is connected is to set my multimeter to the hundred ohm setting, then test for continuity/resistance between the external part of the jack and a wall of a pickup cavity, and between the jack and a tuner. If I have zero ohms between those three spots, then everything is directly connected between them. (It doesn't necessarily prove everything was done correctly or even done at all, but it's a good quick test with a high probability indication.)

You have to remember in many of his scenarios, ground won't actually be grounded. He's using a battery powered amplifier.

 

[byacey]

Are you perhaps setting your expectations of these pickups a little bit on the high side, to be dead silent?
If EMG says they are working within their design parameters, you don't have much else left to go on.

Their active pickups are fairly low impedance output, with a healthy signal level output, so the wiring and controls aren't as susceptible to noise, compared to Hi Z passive pickups.

 

[Crosscheck67]

Are you perhaps setting your expectations of these pickups a little bit on the high side, to be dead silent?
If EMG says they are working within their design parameters, you don't have much else left to go on.

Their active pickups are fairly low impedance output, with a healthy signal level output, so the wiring and controls aren't as susceptible to noise, compared to Hi Z passive pickups.

I have considered that. I know from playing around the area, that my home has s**t wiring, is too close to power lines, and is the noisiest environment I've played in. I recently jammed at my buddy's house (the guy who owns the Jazzmasters and Jaguars), and the noise was there as well, but I couldn't tell if it was as loud because I was playing through his Ampeg. I pointed it out and he said "Really? That's what's bothering you?" Maybe I am being too picky, but after viewing thousands of demos on YouTube which were dead silent when they were supposed to be, I can't let it go. And I know they weren't using a gate because of how quiet notes sustained nice and evenly.

 

[bdplaid]

Haven't we been through all this?

And my expectations for EMG is dead silent.

 

[James Collins]

You have to remember in many of his scenarios, ground won't actually be grounded. He's using a battery powered amplifier.

Yes. Your point? If the shielding isnt grounded, its not doing much. The portable amplifier wouldn't be doing anything to ground it.

 

[BlueTalon]

You have to remember in many of his scenarios, ground won't actually be grounded. He's using a battery powered amplifier.

Two things. One, language has constraints, and one of them is context. As far as the bass is concerned, the shielding has to be grounded (connected) to the negative lug of the jack. Whether or not the amp is grounded is kinda irrelevant when we're just talking about bass wiring and shielding.

Two, I think I was the first advocate in this thread for using a properly grounded amplifier, powered from a properly grounded power outlet, as part of the troubleshooting. I had an issue years ago at a jam at someone's house, where I was getting this horrid noise from a bass & amp I knew to be normally silent. The problem was the wiring in the old house. I strung an extension cord from the laundry room, which had recently been professionally rewired and was therefore up to code and grounded, and it immediately solved my noise problem.

 

[bdplaid]

I remain curious about the poles and wiring direction of each of the jazz pickups, because as mentioned they have always been designed to be humbucking , but only as a two pickup system. I think I remember this mentioned in the thread, but not sure if it was part of the troubleshooting shakedown.

 

[James Collins]

Two things. One, language has constraints, and one of them is context. As far as the bass is concerned, the shielding has to be grounded (connected) to the negative lug of the jack. Whether or not the amp is grounded is kinda irrelevant when we're just talking about bass wiring and shielding.

Two, I think I was the first advocate in this thread for using a properly grounded amplifier, powered from a properly grounded power outlet, as part of the troubleshooting. I had an issue years ago at a jam at someone's house, where I was getting this horrid noise from a bass & amp I knew to be normally silent. The problem was the wiring in the old house. I strung an extension cord from the laundry room, which had recently been professionally rewired and was therefore up to code and grounded, and it immediately solved my noise problem.

The bass guitar grounds to the amplifier. If the ground to the amplifier isn't grounded, the bass isn't grounded, so the shielding isn't grounded. Even if the amplifier just has a neutral it is ultimately connected to ground. If the amplifier isn't grounded, the shielding won't work as expected. So whether the amplifier is grounded is relevant.

The OP is picking up EMI from a noisy room, I suspect because of old house wiring which often connected the ground wire to a water or gas pipe.

The direct solution would be to fix the grounding of the house. That isn't happening.

Shielding is probably irrelevant because it cannot be grounded without a ground.

The alternative to find a less noisy pickup is fine until another instrument has a problem.

 

[JKos]

The OP is picking up EMI from a noisy room, I suspect because of old house wiring

That indicates you haven't read the whole thread. OP turned off power to the house and noise did not change one bit. Proximity to the power lines in front of the house directly influences the noise.

 

[James Collins]

That indicates you haven't read the whole thread. OP turned off power to the house and noise did not change one bit. Proximity to the power lines in front of the house directly influences the noise.

OP turned off power at the circuit breaker, not to the house.

The house having power cut off requires calling the power company. Electricity still comes into the house and can still cause noise from wires going to or from the meter and circuit breaker box.

The thing is, no one has solved his problem or identified the cause. Most of the testing done has been flawed in some way.

Also, I have read this entire thread. I've been following it since day 1.

And, I had this exact problem a couple years ago. Directional EMI that seemed to depend on which guitar I used but one was really terrible. Had the ground on my house fixed and the problem went away.

 

[Crosscheck67]

OP turned off power at the circuit breaker, not to the house.

The house having power cut off requires calling the power company. Electricity still comes into the house and can still cause noise from wires going to or from the meter and circuit breaker box.

The thing is, no one has solved his problem or identified the cause. Most of the testing done has been flawed in some way.

Also, I have read this entire thread. I've been following it since day 1.

And, I had this exact problem a couple years ago. Directional EMI that seemed to depend on which guitar I used but one was really terrible. Had the ground on my house fixed and the problem went away.

I hear you. The wiring in my home is truly ridiculous. It was a hard lesson learned as I continue to discover how "Industry Standards", "Up to Code" and "Legal" have little to do with "Quality" or "Legitimately Effective". Installing a ground rod won't be enough. This place needs gutting.

That said, the cost is not worth it. I'm already looking at other towns.

 

[dwizum]

I remain curious about the poles and wiring direction of each of the jazz pickups, because as mentioned they have always been designed to be humbucking , but only as a two pickup system. I think I remember this mentioned in the thread, but not sure if it was part of the troubleshooting shakedown.

It is a good question, for sure.

True single coil Jazz pickups are reverse wound and reverse (magnetic) polarity from each other such that they form a humbucking pair of coils (when both pickups are on at equal volumes). So, any winding or size differences aside, the bridge and neck pickups are distinct from each other and you need one of each to get a humbucking pair. If you ended up with two neck pickups, they would be in phase with each other and produce a good signal, but the noise would not be rejected.

Many aftermarket pickups (including the EMG, Bartolini, and 96 art models shown in this thread) are "self humbucking" in that the single pickup is comprised of two coils that are internally connected in a way that rejects noise. This is typically done by putting two full-height but half-length coils in line with each other (96 art, bartolini, nordstrand, Dimarzio, EMG and Seymour Duncan in some models, etc) or by stacking two full length but half height coils on top of each other (EMG in some of their models, Fender in some models, Seymour Duncan and Dimarzio in some models, etc). At any rate, humbucking J's are not position-specific in the humbucking sense. You can use two necks and they will still reject the same amount of noise as if you have a proper neck and bridge pair.

So, essentially, the "two left shoes" thing is only really possible if you're using legitimate single coil pickups.