• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Sure-Fire Method for EQing?

#21
kanonfodr said:
When it comes to EQ, I always just boost the crap out of my 800-900hz (whatever the amp supports, or just the Mids control) and if I have the control for it, I also boost my 250hz (Low-Mids). And keep in mind I've been working in 6-piece heavy metal bands with 2 guitars, 1 vox, drums, a keyboard (or two or three) and then there's me. And here's why:
<100 hz - kick drum territory (can be up to 120 hz depending on drum and drummer) no need to fight against that and muddy everything up.

27 hz - average fundamental of the Low B on a bass guitar

83 hz - average fundamental of the E on a bass guitar

100 hz - Low B on a 7-string guitar

120 hz - E string on a guitar

240 hz - Mid-range on the guitar, most metal guitarists cut this range to sound more Uber so I'm going to boost my signal here to cut through

400 hz - kick drum attack (It's the T of the Toom) normally boosted in studio recordings

800-900 hz - the Clack of my bass (sounds ugly in the room, but emphasizes your attack in the mix)

1000 hz - male vocals begin here, not my space

1200 hz - Guitar solo territory and also female vox begin - also not my space

2khz and up - cymbals and overtones, your bass doesn't go this high

Keep in mind these are general guidelines, and my reasons to approach EQ in the way that I do.

Also, the heavier the guitars get (Mesa or Marshall on 10), the cleaner you need to keep your bass to be heard, and vice versa. If you like to have a lot of gain on your front end like I do for sensitivity you may want to invest in a "cleaner" sounding amp like a GK or a Hartke - if the guitars are more laid back (Fender or Vox on a reasonable gain) then by all means - drive your Ampeg or Mesa Big Block like you stole it :)

Peace,
Greg
Click to expand...

How is it possible for the fundamental of the E string to be 83Hz (that's actually the first overtone- the fundamental of the E string on a bass is 41.2Hz) AND 120Hz, when an octave above the first overtone would be 164.8Hz?
 
#23
I have a general setting that I have developed over time. Usually pretty flat with a low-mid boost. (Doesn't matter what my particular settings are because our gear/ears are different.)

As stated in hundreds of threads here, forget about numbers on dials and use your ears. (In fact, I wish amp manufacturers would quit putting the dang numbers on the dials. Put them in the manual for the "getting to know you" period of amp ownership.)

If I am in a band or room that is particularly hard to dial in I will go back to flat (which, by the way, may not be "all zeros" on your amp. You need to research your amp to find out what the flat setting is). Then, I try a couple of things using ears and experience and have a conversation with the sound guy if there is PA support, and another band member I trust of there isn't.

Simplified, if it sounds too boomy, take out some lows. It you have para capability, experiment with (tweek) the frequency range you are reducing. If you don't have para capability, turn the "low" knob to the left until it isn't boomy any more. Do this for mids and highs. Rinse and repeat.

You ever seen the movie Tin Cup about golf? You can go off on crazy tangents WAY over thinking the EQ process (as many here do). But, eventually, you have to develop your own "grip it and rip it" philosophy a la me and Jimmy. Get to know your amp so well that when you get into a live situation you can just "crank knobs until it sounds good". There is no one single "sure fire" way to EQ every amp in every live situation. It does not exist.

In this order.....
1) REALLY get to know your amp through experimentation at home and in rehearsal. (For instance, my vintage Ampeg V4 requires quite a knob turn to make a huge difference in EQ. But I used to own an Eden head that required the slightest of dial turn to make a tremendous difference.)
2) Trust your ears
3) Trust the ears of someone else in the room during sound check
4) Go with a combination of your gut and input from others as to what sounds great out front because you simply can't hear it in that context without a wireless unit and a half hour to tiwddle with "your tone" at sound check (which you shouldn't need and will almost never have).

I think you are over analyzing this. I usually get to sound check and hit a few notes. Maybe make a slight adjustment on the low-mids I am boosting/cutting based on how sound is bouncing around that particular stage/room to my ears. Get a line/level check. The band runs a tune and then I ask the sound guy if he needs anything different. They usually say "Nah. You're good. But thanks for asking." Actually ASKING someone else (preferably the sound guy) is your safety net. I am a sound guy too. Trust me. If given the opportunity I will tell you what I need more or less of coming from you in an easy to understand concise fashion. (Usually something like "You're lows are peeling the skin off my face at 100 yards. Can you dial that back a bit? And the "clank" you have going there sounds like a .22 rifle every single time you hit a note. Yeah...... I'm 'uh need you to work on that. Thanks.")

Over time you will just "get it"and it won't take any time/effort at all.
 
#24
kanonfodr said:
27 hz - average fundamental of the Low B on a bass guitar

83 hz - average fundamental of the E on a bass guitar

100 hz - Low B on a 7-string guitar

120 hz - E string on a guitar

240 hz - Mid-range on the guitar, most metal guitarists cut this range to sound more Uber so I'm going to boost my signal here to cut through

400 hz - kick drum attack (It's the T of the Toom) normally boosted in studio recordings

800-900 hz - the Clack of my bass (sounds ugly in the room, but emphasizes your attack in the mix)

1000 hz - male vocals begin here, not my space

1200 hz - Guitar solo territory and also female vox begin - also not my space

2khz and up - cymbals and overtones, your bass doesn't go this high
Click to expand...

So much is wrong with this information, I don't know where to begin.

Lonnybass
 
#25
Lonnybass said:
So much is wrong with this information, I don't know where to begin.

Lonnybass
Click to expand...

In my view, in a LIVE situation, so much is wrong with even going down that road for the bass player himself. The guy behind the board should be up to speed on all that. But the bass player can almost always get away with never knowing frequency numbers at all...... ever.
 
#26
taurus1 said:
that's common, a tone that works in a live mix or in the studio, when solo'ed, often sounds like a mess.
Click to expand...

This and the comments by Lonny are where success lies. Living room solo tones are death to an ensemble. If you are THE soloist, you have liberties you can take, but fighting for your sound/personal tone at the expense of the group is a poor proposition.

Get a wireless and a good parametric and get out in front and see what works in the specific space you are in - with the players you are with!
 
#27

Lonnybass said:
...really dialing in a bass rig onstage is generally made easier with a parametric EQ. The steps are as follows:

1) Set the width of the band to the narrowest setting (peak).

2) Boost the "level" control all the way up.

3) Slowly turn the frequency select knob. You'll hear a kind of "whorl" sound as various frequencies are highlighted as you sweep through them.

4) Eventually, as you turn the select knob, a terrible heinous-sounding frequency will be pinpointed and singe your face.
Stop turning the knob.

6) Turn the "level" control down instead of up.
Click to expand...
This is a good approach, although I’d recommend sweeping with a broader bandwidth – say, 1/3 to 1/2-octave. With an ultra-tight bandwidth, you’re essentially dealing with single-note precision. More typically if there is a problem – either “hot” or “dead” - it’s in a frequency range rather than a specific note.

My approach is to make sure all notes come through from the highest to the lowest. In some situations or venues you might notice that the high notes up in the second octave of the neck, for example, aren’t coming through. Or like the place I played in recently that seemed to be a low freq “soak:” The lowest notes didn’t have the seat-of-the-pants “feel.” A 2/3-octave graphic or parametric EQ can easily help a depressed range to cut through the mix.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club
Big Cabs Club #23
Pedulla Club #45

 
#28
1958Bassman said:
How is it possible for the fundamental of the E string to be 83Hz (that's actually the first overtone- the fundamental of the E string on a bass is 41.2Hz) AND 120Hz, when an octave above the first overtone would be 164.8Hz?
Click to expand...

My bad for not checking with the stats, but those are the numbers I have in memory that I saw some time ago, and they are for the most part functional.

Lonnybass said:
So much is wrong with this information, I don't know where to begin.

Lonnybass
Click to expand...

By all means, please fix it :) (and no, I'm not being sarcastic)

two fingers said:
In my view, in a LIVE situation, so much is wrong with even going down that road for the bass player himself. The guy behind the board should be up to speed on all that. But the bass player can almost always get away with never knowing frequency numbers at all...... ever.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that less knowledge is better?? Because in my opinion, having a clearer idea about the big picture can only improve one's understanding of the mix, and all of this came from the drummer and sound engineer for my second band (which just wrapped up album number 4...I'd hope he knows his stuff: http://www.cassandrasyndrome.com/ ) And in my experience, counting on the guy behind the board to know his stuff is sometimes hoping for a bit too much - even at big venues where the "professionals" forgot to mix our lead guitarist into the FOH at an outdoor gig :atoz: .

Peace,
Greg
 
#29
Start flat with bas and amp.

Get a lot of experience in different venues, with different bands.

Boost or cut on your amp as necessary.

Have this onboard to easily tweak as you go:

big-al-det-630-80.jpg


Others claim it's just as easy with a P bass, but I don't believe them. :)
 
#31
kanonfodr said:
So you're saying that less knowledge is better?? Because in my opinion, having a clearer idea about the big picture can only improve one's understanding of the mix, and all of this came from the drummer and sound engineer for my second band (which just wrapped up album number 4...I'd hope he knows his stuff: http://www.cassandrasyndrome.com/ ) And in my experience, counting on the guy behind the board to know his stuff is sometimes hoping for a bit too much - even at big venues where the "professionals" forgot to mix our lead guitarist into the FOH at an outdoor gig :atoz: .

Peace,
Greg
Click to expand...

Nooooooooooo not at all. You added 2+2 and came up with 75.

What I mean is that for the most part a bar band, private party, and festival bass player can go his whole career and NOT absolutely have to know the frequency of an open E, or a 7th string on a guitar, or female vocals.

What I am saying is that "knowledge" is knowing your gear through experimentation, understanding GENERAL rules about what does and does not fit into most mixes, and training your ear to be able to spot what will probably fit in a mix even when there is no band (the whole "my living room tone sucks in a mix and my band tone sucks in my living room" thing).

Many amazing players go their whole careers and know virtually ZERO about frequencies. But they can carve out a spot in a mix like a tenured recording engineer at a major label studio. Knowledge, in my view, doesn't always mean you know the stats and the math.

I know lots of math dealing with electronic circuits. They ALWAYS work in simulators if you trust the math. But once you put the same components on a real live circuit board, the math flies out the window (to a certain extent) due to tolerances and you have to be able to go with your gut and figure out how to MAKE the circuit work without relying so heavily on the math and theory.

I have played some REALLY hard rooms that very professional experienced sound guys couldn't fully get their heads around. And each of us in those bands had to work with those sound guys and "try some stuff" based on experience to get a grip on the mix.

So, I still believe that one need not (always) have to learn the physics of sound to be able to find a spot in a mix. But you simply MUST have some knowledge of how it all comes together (even if that is just a "feeling" based on experience and experimentation).
 
#34
two fingers said:
Nooooooooooo not at all. You added 2+2 and came up with 75.

What I mean is that for the most part a bar band, private party, and festival bass player can go his whole career and NOT absolutely have to know the frequency of an open E, or a 7th string on a guitar, or female vocals.

What I am saying is that "knowledge" is knowing your gear through experimentation, understanding GENERAL rules about what does and does not fit into most mixes, and training your ear to be able to spot what will probably fit in a mix even when there is no band (the whole "my living room tone sucks in a mix and my band tone sucks in my living room" thing).

Many amazing players go their whole careers and know virtually ZERO about frequencies. But they can carve out a spot in a mix like a tenured recording engineer at a major label studio. Knowledge, in my view, doesn't always mean you know the stats and the math.

I know lots of math dealing with electronic circuits. They ALWAYS work in simulators if you trust the math. But once you put the same components on a real live circuit board, the math flies out the window (to a certain extent) due to tolerances and you have to be able to go with your gut and figure out how to MAKE the circuit work without relying so heavily on the math and theory.

I have played some REALLY hard rooms that very professional experienced sound guys couldn't fully get their heads around. And each of us in those bands had to work with those sound guys and "try some stuff" based on experience to get a grip on the mix.

So, I still believe that one need not (always) have to learn the physics of sound to be able to find a spot in a mix. But you simply MUST have some knowledge of how it all comes together (even if that is just a "feeling" based on experience and experimentation).
Click to expand...

But especially in this modern age of bands running their own sound, or one band running sound for the rest, or simply having a guy behind the board on Saturday who's behind the bar the other 5 nights he works at the joint - it damn sure doesn't hurt to know at least a little bit. And "feel", "golden ears", "intuition", or just the ol' college try are all great things but knowing the basic physics behind things can never hurt. Hell, there are guys out there who write music more like giant algebra problems as opposed to "this sounds awesome" and make great music.

That, and I like numbers to reference :)

Peace,
Greg
 
#35
1958Bassman said:
How is it possible for the fundamental of the E string to be 83Hz (that's actually the first overtone- the fundamental of the E string on a bass is 41.2Hz) AND 120Hz, when an octave above the first overtone would be 164.8Hz?
Click to expand...

Lonnybass said:
So much is wrong with this information, I don't know where to begin.

Lonnybass
Click to expand...

I think this discussion is very helpful. I've been playing old gear all my life that didn't have lots of eq'ing options. So I am very behind on the learning curve. It isn't something that just comes easily to everyone. Learning how to eq for the stage, for the band, and for the room are all subtle arts. I'd love to know more about what frequencies have what characteristics and musical qualities.

For instance I just realized I prefer a low-mid bump to my tone between 200-300.

or

I searched all over the internet and for the life of me I couldn't find what frequencies are best to cut if playing in (or mixing for) a typical school gymnasium to minimize all those nasty sounds that build up.

I hope this discussion continues cause I know it'd help me a lot.

Subscribed.
 
#37
jallenbass said:
Read post #15
Click to expand...

I apologize for missing that.
I have no method when it comes to the bass rig, when it comes to the monitors and front, that's an entirely different animal.
the bass rig is your/my on stage monitor, so I set it how I want to hear myself on stage. I don't worry about how it's sounds out front because that's the soundmans territory and I have no control over that.
if I'm too loud or have too much bottom end coming off the stage, the soundman will let me know, rarely happens though.
my rig is tweaked to sound the way I want it at the rehearsal space, I know that sound well.
I just try and repeat that tone at gigs, usually it just requires tweaking the bottom end because that's the area where different rooms seem to affect the most, I usually end up turning the bottom end down a bit to allow the soundman to have the bass louder in the front end.
this is assuming there's (obviously) a PA that the bass is running through.
if there's no PA, then you want to balance how you want to hear your rig on stage, vs how you want it to be heard out front in the room.
I've been playing for decades and have never done a gig without a PA.
 
#38
I'll say this...it's VERY DEPENDENT on the rig in question and what you're trying to accomplish with it. Lots of guys might recommend boosting lower mids...but if the rig is a Schroeder and is already shooting out a hefty 250 HZ bump from the cab with everything on the amp left straight up at noon, more lower mids is the LAST thing you need.

Lonnybass
 
#39
I usually start with everything (except volume & gain) set to 12:00... Most of the time that setting sticks, sometimes I need to roll off, or up a notch or so here or there, but for the most part that's the setting I stick with.
 
#40
I have modified my earlier posting in which I had spelled out which frequencies work for me. Why? Because upon further thought, trying to ape my own numbers - or anyone else for that matter - is kind of worthless because there are so many other variables that come into play that it might not actually do anything to get you closer to the way YOU want to sound.

Kind of like how following tabs won't help you read music.

So, rather than share my own EQ setup, I think its much more beneficial to highlight some basics of EQ not just from a bass player point of view but from an engineering standpoint.

IN GENERAL:

---Depending on your cab, amp and the stage setup, you're going to eat up of power to general frequencies in the sub 50/40/30 Hz range that you don't need, or want, on a stage.

---A lot of mud is often found in the 90 - 110 Hz range.

---You'll find a lot of power in the lower midrange, around 200 - 300 Hz.

---500 Hz is a good starting point to get some note clarity and definition without actually making yourself louder. A lot of quality on-board preamps have a 500 Hz center point. And Will Lee has a 500 Hz feature on his custom Sadowsky.

---800 to 1000 Hz is where you can tap your inner Jaco.

---Too much upper midrange in the 2KHz area is often the key to listener fatigue-land.

---Treble at or above 4KHz can add some nice percussive sizzle once you find the sweet spot, but you need to balance it against unwanted string noise/electrical hiss.

Lonnybass
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back