Double Bass Sushi Box tube preamp pedals (DB thread)

[JBarz]

…A place for discussion of these magical Sushi Box tube preamp pedals in the context of our particular quest to achieve a MBOL aesthetic from a mere piezo pickup.

On the front end of my signal chain, I’m running the Slampegg (B15 circuit) with a Tung Sol 12AT7 (instead of the stock JJ 12AX7) into a “more” pedal with both stock tubes switched for their Tung Sol equivalent.

The slab thread seemed to indicate that different tubes shouldn’t make that much of a difference, but I found switching the tubes to be crucial and actually made a huge impact. The Tung Sol tubes seem to be EQ’d different (less mids) and have a more natural break up.

I didn’t want to ruffle any feathers by reporting my findings over there, but figured we should have our own thread. Nathan, the @Sushi Box FX dude, is cool as can be and super open to discuss his stuff and even makes blank circuit boards available for ambitious DIY’rs to populate.

Anyway, I’m obsessed with the MBOL amplified upright tone I’m getting with these magic boxes and highly recommend anyone with a couple hundred bucks to burn on their amplified tone check them out.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

The slab thread seemed to indicate that different tubes shouldn’t make that much of a difference

There are mixed opinions on tube rolling and probably always will be, but my personal experience has been that some brands inherently sound different than others due to the manufacturing processes and specifications of materials. I like the write-up Invalid Link Removed and find that it generally lines up with my findings. I use JJ/Tesla for all stock pedals because they provide a nice balanced tone and low noise, but the pedals on my personal board have an assortment of NOS/vintage tubes of various make, no JJ's on there.

The blanket statement I usually make regarding modern production tubes is that Russian tubes are usually darker, Chinese tubes are brighter and some brands (especially Sino) are on the harsh side. JJ/Tesla are balanced and punchy, without being "too much" of anything.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Is it hot enough to drive a power amp without diming it?

 

[Sushi Box FX]

Is it hot enough to drive a power amp without diming it?

Some are, but not all. Slampegg Bee Pre (B15 preamp) is the lowest output offering I make and depending on the amp may not be hot enough, but I have others like Underground Accelerator (loosely F-2B based) with a much higher output that can certainly drive a power amp. I also like using More (simple 1-knob preamp/tube warmer) for that purpose, and a 12AX7 can be used in the V1 position for more output if needed as not all power amp inputs have the same requirements.

 

[flatback]

I went full NOS with my Sarnos (really interested in these little boxes too) and have expensive RCA's in there. I bought a bunch of tubes to try (had never tried different tubes before) DIFFERENT TUBES SOUND DIFFERENT. They are after all microphonic so there is an inherent sound that the actual tube makes that is different depending on design and other factors. I love the old ones they sound better.

 

[JBarz]

Ok, I have tried every single permutation of possible I/O combinations with the Slampegg, More, and Redeye. In case it saves anyone some trial and error:

Full circle piezo —> Slampegg —> Redeye DI out —> More —> amp

Something about knocking the signal back through the Redeye’s DI XLR out and kicking it back up with the More made the whole thing light up like a Christmas tree. I had to make a XLR female to 1/4 male cord, but that was no big deal - I just fused the 1st and 3rd ground wires on the XLR end.

I am also running a tuner and looper through the Redeye FX loop, as that seemed to have the least impact on the signal.

The MBOL is strong with this setup!

 

[crd]

Ok, I have tried every single permutation of possible I/O combinations with the Slampegg, More, and Redeye. In case it saves anyone some trial and error:

Full circle piezo —> Slampegg —> Redeye DI out —> More —> amp

Something about knocking the signal back through the Redeye’s DI XLR out and kicking it back up with the More made the whole thing light up like a Christmas tree. I had to make a XLR female to 1/4 male cord, but that was no big deal - I just fused the 1st and 3rd ground wires on the XLR end.

I am also running a tuner and looper through the Redeye FX loop, as that seemed to have the least impact on the signal.

The MBOL is strong with this setup!

Not to be a downer but how do you know without recording it and leveling matching your options?

Often overdrive type pedals make your signal louder (duh) which can color it in nice ways but your ears are naturally inclined to like things that are louder.

 

[JBarz]

I’ve been working with a loop pedal for my quick a/b trials without the acoustic tone in the perceptual mix. The redeye sends a very different signal out the FX out than it does the DI out. The buffering that takes place in there cleans up a lot and absolutely rocks. In second place for my favorite chain was the two sushi box preamps through the redeye effects loop, but this lacked the clarity and buoyancy that this setup has.

I do not like to fiddle faddle with knobs if I can avoid it, so all my trials are with the gain and controls for everything at noon, and 9 o’clock on my final master volume. The differences were pretty profound and the “winner” pretty obviously clear. It has to do with impedance stuff that I don’t understand, I’m sure, but that More pedal is pretty particular about where it likes to be. Don’t get me wrong - it fits in just about everywhere, but often “too much more”. I was just about to abandon it before I found this solution. The redeye 100% sounds better out of the DI out, but the signal is too weak to leave my amp in the sweet spot @noon where I like it. The More takes that weak but clean clean signal in and gives not tube color (that’s the slampegg’s job), necessarily, but tube clarity. The higher harmonics shine and shimmer in a way that makes it indispensable to me now.

I’m primarily playing solo bass and singing (and playing flute with the assistance of the loop pedal), so the bass tone is very exposed and makes the MBOL quest very satisfying when achieved (but also conversely equally maddening when there are artificial artifacts or otherwise unnatural sounding attributes) .

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Not to be a downer but how do you know without recording it and leveling matching your options?

Often overdrive type pedals make your signal louder (duh) which can color it in nice ways but your ears are naturally inclined to like things that are louder.

Neither of these pedals are really overdrive… the Slampegg Bee can get gritty but it’s designed to be a version of an Ampeg preamp. The More is a tube buffer with no gain, only volume.

 

[crd]

I’ve been working with a loop pedal for my quick a/b trials without the acoustic tone in the perceptual mix. The redeye sends a very different signal out the FX out than it does the DI out. The buffering that takes place in there cleans up a lot and absolutely rocks. In second place for my favorite chain was the two sushi box preamps through the redeye effects loop, but this lacked the clarity and buoyancy that this setup has.

I do not like to fiddle faddle with knobs if I can avoid it, so all my trials are with the gain and controls for everything at noon, and 9 o’clock on my final master volume. The differences were pretty profound and the “winner” pretty obviously clear. It has to do with impedance stuff that I don’t understand, I’m sure, but that More pedal is pretty particular about where it likes to be. Don’t get me wrong - it fits in just about everywhere, but often “too much more”. I was just about to abandon it before I found this solution. The redeye 100% sounds better out of the DI out, but the signal is too weak to leave my amp in the sweet spot @noon where I like it. The More takes that weak but clean clean signal in and gives not tube color (that’s the slampegg’s job), necessarily, but tube clarity. The higher harmonics shine and shimmer in a way that makes it indispensable to me now.

I’m primarily playing solo bass and singing (and playing flute with the assistance of the loop pedal), so the bass tone is very exposed and makes the MBOL quest very satisfying when achieved (but also conversely equally maddening when there are artificial artifacts or otherwise unnatural sounding attributes) .

If you are using a looper instead of your instrument to judge these things you've already significantly changed your signal chain. Keeping all your volume/gain knobs in the same place isn't the same as level matching a recording. If it sounds good, then it is good but it is really easy to fool your ears.

Neither of these pedals are really overdrive… the Slampegg Bee can get gritty but it’s designed to be a version of an Ampeg preamp. The More is a tube buffer with no gain, only volume.

I found More to really color my signal. It could be great in certain circumstances but I found it dirtied up my lows in a way that didn't really suit upright IMO. I don't have any experience with the Slampegg.

You guys maybe have more refined ears than I do but unless I level match and record these things it is really hard to tell what's what. Here are some tests I ran with a synth arp, More and a pc-2a.

 

[Sushi Box FX]

Neither of these pedals are really overdrive… the The More is a tube buffer with no gain, only volume.

Not entirely accurate, More does have a gainstage in the front end before the buffer. Vampire Slayer (now discontinued) is the only thing I've done that was buffer only with no gainstage. A single tube stage by itself will never overdrive though, it can only push the device after it into overdrive.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Not entirely accurate, More does have a gainstage in the front end before the buffer. Vampire Slayer (now discontinued) is the only thing I've done that was buffer only with no gainstage. A single tube stage by itself will never overdrive though, it can only push the device after it into overdrive.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[JBarz]

I found More to really color my signal. It could be great in certain circumstances but I found it dirtied up my lows in a way that didn't really suit upright IMO.

I found it much more useable with the Tung Sol tubes. Tried some old tubes I had lying around from guitar amps and each one turned the MORE into a drastically totally different thing. It didn’t particularly light my fire with the stock tubes, either.

you’re right about my findings not necessarily being scientific at all. If I find the time I might bring my recording rig in on the experiment and try to have more control. Im just super happy to find something that works and stands out above all the other options. I’ve been beating my head against the wall in this particular rabbit hole and I’m grateful to move on to the next thing. Im a big fan of these pedals.

 

[JBarz]

Is it hot enough to drive a power amp without diming it?

I got my PJB powered speaker in from
repair and got a chance to try the Slampegg + More into it. Neither by themselves do the thing, but together they absolutely have enough juice and are voiced just right, especially for that dark deep PJB cab.

On my other rig, it inspired me to run the pair into the effects in of my AI amp, bypassing the amp’s internal pre. sure enough, there was even more clarity than before. Too many cooks in the kitchen with the AI preamp in there, it would seem.

I wouldn’t be surprised if our hero Nathan releases a Slampegg+More combo pedal especially voiced for upright, designed to go into directly into power amps one day. Call it “The Apiary” or “honey dripper”

 

[Sushi Box FX]

I got my PJB powered speaker in from
repair and got a chance to try the Slampegg + More into it. Neither by themselves do the thing, but together they absolutely have enough juice and are voiced just right, especially for that dark deep PJB cab.

On my other rig, it inspired me to run the pair into the effects in of my AI amp, bypassing the amp’s internal pre. sure enough, there was even more clarity than before. Too many cooks in the kitchen with the AI preamp in there, it would seem.

I wouldn’t be surprised if our hero Nathan releases a Slampegg+More combo pedal especially voiced for upright, designed to go into directly into power amps one day. Call it “The Apiary” or “honey dripper”

Sometime try a 12AX7 in the preamp spot of More and see if that will run the power amp by itself. It has a lot kore juice that way.

I don't have anything on paper yet, but I was talking to the phenomenal Charley Sabatino at NAMM and he convinced me I should develop a preamp specifically for upright rather than just try to make something designed for bass guitar also work for upright. I'll most likely use More as a starting point, because I want it to be able to be pretty transparent. Charley said something to the effect of "I've worked for decades on the tone and feel of my playing, I don't want something that's going to cover that up."

 

[JBarz]

From my experience the More really needs the Slampegg not for a little extra gain boost, but for the low end presence and tone. I agree with crd that the More all by its lonesome is none too flattering for the DB tone. The Slampegg by itself hits the nail on the head - just not necessarily enough to power a power amp. Transparency is a tricky thing to discuss when talking about piezo pickups, because inherently they don’t sound great. In fact, I honestly think you’re “there” already with the Slampegg with a 12at7 in terms of tone and clarity, imho.

If you haven’t reverse-engineered a Redeye, there is some sort of “impedance matching” tech that has a lot of us very impressed with what it does to the piezo to get rid of the quack. We’re all dying for a layman’s explanation of what the **** it’s doing to the signal to soften the piezo’s abrasive nature if you’re up for the challenge.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Consider me interested. I'm a long time B15'ish tone chaser in a modern footprint. I've been a long time user of Sansamp products for both UB and BG for this reason. For a time I was also using an Ampeg B100R which sounded good, but it weighs a ton.

A comment or two though - B15 tone and MBOL are not the same thing. Not sure how anyone could confuse the two. There's no magic that the B15 circuit is going to do to make a piezo somehow sound like a microphone. Once you start running a pickup on an instrument, your expectations for acoustic reproduction should go out the window unless you're able to play at very low volumes.

However I am in the camp that the B15'ish stuff can create a very pleasant amplified tone for upright, which is all I shoot for when amplifying. I've always run the tube emulation at 100% on my preamps. It does add something that's hard to quantify compared to the so called transparent preamps. Transparency is also a tricky subject. Piezos aren't transparent in comparison to what the bass sounds like, so do you really mean that the preamp isn't inherently cutting or boosting any frequencies it receives prior to adjusting the knobs?

In any event, I'm interested to see what you come up with.

 

[flatback]

What I love about the Sarno V8 is what Brad advertises it as: A clean machine. It uses Octal tubes which have a lower amplification then a 12AX7 and the like and the preamp us made to deliver the kind of tone we are looking for without it trying to do double duty as a distortion device. It also fully powers the tubes with Hi Voltage power (an IEC cord) rather then a 9V power. I am only pointing this stuff out because while I am totally interested in the little stompbox and would love to downsize, while still getting the tube warmth, I am totally addicted to the Octal tube thing: It has a purity in the tone which is just killing (plus the V8 has the variable Impedance). Would love to see a stomp box Octal. Would love to hear anything Sushi Box comes up with specifically for upright too. I encourage Octals.

 

[bdowd]

I just pulled the trigger on a slampegg, love me some b-15. When I record with a pickup I find myself reaching for a b-15 sim these days (plugin alliance right now).

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I would say for upright, rolling a lower output tube into the Slampegg is the game changer. I currently have a nos 12AT7 but I could see putting a 12AU7 too. The useful tone is truly inspiring but not really MBOL.