Switching from OFPF to 1-2-4 Left Hand Technique

[Wasnex]

Third and Fourth fingers work (almost) like one in Simandl's 1-2-4.
"The third finger acts as a "support" for the pinkie as they both share a tendon, in which case the third finger doesn't need to be anywhere specific on the fingerboard."
I've tried to use 1-2-3 (and I can easily do it) but I've felt some "stretching and straining" in my left hand while playing the bass guitar in a regular position.

P.S. When I've changed my bass guitar to playing like the cello - the bass fretboard is right with my left ear - that stretching and straining have disappeared.
Go figure.

How far you have to reach to the nut of the bass is a factor on bass guitar. My only 35" scale bass guitar is my Modulus Genesis 5. Next longest is my Daion PowerMark XB that measures 34.5". The Daion feels like it spreads my fingers wider to play OFPF at the nut. The difference is the reach to the nut. The Daion places the bridge significantly in from the edge of the body. This extends the reach to the nut.


PowerMark XB

Genesis 5

 

[Whousedtoplay]

My only 35" scale bass guitar is my Modulus Genesis 5

Now, I understand why I have had that "stretching/straining" sensation.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Perhaps starting out that way over 40 years ago gives me some advantages!

I always assumed that if you weren't primarily an upright player you could never play fretless. Wrong. Perhaps it's harder, but it's twice as much fun.

 

[SteveCS]

I always assumed that if you weren't primarily an upright player you could never play fretless. Wrong. Perhaps it's harder, but it's twice as much fun.

I'm not an upright player by any sensible measure. My daughter plays orchestral double bass at a professional level so I get exposed to that standard of play and musicianship around the house every day, which is great. What she can do with the her bass is astonishing!

 

[Les Fret]

I always assumed that if you weren't primarily an upright player you could never play fretless. Wrong.

Jaco didn’t play upright…

 

[BassicJazzy]

Jaco didn’t play upright…

Why don't you google that? He started on upright, but the humidity in FL warped it so he switched. He had the ability to play it. Fyi, I saw him play upright live in a concert performance, but I cannot remember whether he pulled it out with Pat Metheny or Weather Report. I think it was probably with Metheny. He was quite phenomenal on upright. Granted, he was primarily an electric bass player.

 

[Les Fret]

Why don't you google that? He started on upright, but the humidity in FL warped it so he switched. He had the ability to play it. Fyi, I saw him play upright live in a concert performance, but I cannot remember whether he pulled it out with Pat Metheny or Weather Report. I think it was probably with Metheny. He was quite phenomenal on upright. Granted, he was primarily an electric bass player.

Never saw him play with an upright nor did I see a picture of him with an upright. He is not associated with upright bass at all. I have read his bio book but I can’t remember it being mentioned. But I believe you.

But you don’t need to play upright at all to play fretless.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Never saw him play with an upright nor did I see a picture of him with an upright. He is not associated with upright bass at all. I have read his bio book but I can’t remember it being mentioned. But I believe you.

But you don’t need to play upright at all to play fretless.

I agree with all of the above. I don't ever remember him in a pic on the upright, I think he just played it when I saw him becuase the piece they were playing wanted the upright sound. Pretty sure it was Metheny group. There's a video with another player remembering Jaco practicing on his upright in apartment above him, before Jaco defretted the J bass.

Yeah, I don't think upright and fretless really have that much crossover, other than developing your sense of touch, and ears.

 

[iqi616]

Also, I know many players use 1-2-4 in the lower register (roughly frets 1–7) and then switch to OFPF higher up the neck.

I have big hands but I've trained myself to play like small-handed players for speed and to reduce strain.

I try not to think of fingering in a rigid way with positions and finger sequences. I still think in shapes but just on the fretboard rather than in my hands. I focus on the notes to be played just as I would on piano - phrase by phrase. I might play 1-2-3 with a hand move (or even 1-2-1) rather than 1-2-4. This is especially so on my fretless because of the way I play.

 

[Guiseppe]

I think Scott Devine got it right when he said in one of his videos, "Use OFPF when you need it, not when you don't."

Over almost 50 years of playing (self taught), I had truthfully never emphasized using OFPF until a year ago when I began focusing on ending flying fingers and being more precise with my fretting finger placement behind my frets. I've found that I have gotten a lot more accurate and my speed is better than ever - but I still use 1/2/4 quite a bit. At this point, I guess I am not so focused on hand position/shifting as playing CLEANLY with my attack being as regular as I can (w/o compression). I'm inclined to agree w/ Scott on this.

 

[turf3]

An aspirational goal is for fingering to be automatic. You read the notes off a page or think of a bass line, and your fingers make it happen without conscious thought.

In order to significantly realize this goal, one fingering system has to take priority over other options. There is not time to consider doing it two ways.

The primary system I use on bass guitar is my personal form of OFPF. Sometimes my fingering system breaks for a variety of reasons. When this happens, it's necessary to stop and figure out what to do. Lot's of options.

Because I play both upright bass and electric, but upright is my primary, I use Simandl fingering on both.

Of course there isn't thumb position on electric, so if I ever start playing electric enough to get up into the positions where there's no uncomfortable stretching to play OFPF, I'll undoubtedly adapt the Simandl thumb position concepts to get OFPF. But in lower positions, I find it too much of a stretch.

I suppose if I were playing only electric (or if I were to actually study it seriously), I'd develop a less fixed approach to hand position in the lower positions. But on upright, you need to start with that fixed claw hand just to be able to manage the forces. On electric with the much lower fretting forces, I'm sure letting the hand float around to make OFPF work is plenty OK. Plus, of course, you've got frets, so you finger within 3/8" of the spot and you're good.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

On electric with the much lower fretting forces

(It's only my personal but deeply-rooted opinion.)
I don't like that nonchalant, "sleeping-beauty" attitude about playing - fretting - the bass guitar - like softly petting your cat.
It's almost like, "just add more volume, and the bass will play for you."
Let's say, playing a simple country bass-line (Root-5th) on the DB requires some efforts, but playing the same bass-line on the electric bass - "just relax and enjoy the ride."
It's not my personal approach to any bass-lines.
Nobody has canceled the dynamics, its range (that any MUSIC is full of) while playing the bass guitar.

The following is "paraphrase" of "Night in Tunisia" by Petros Klampanis.
I cannot imagine playing it on the bass guitar with that "sleeping beauty" attitude.

 

[BassicJazzy]

(It's only my personal but deeply-rooted opinion.)
I don't like that nonchalant, "sleeping-beauty" attitude about playing - fretting - the bass guitar - like softly petting your cat.
It's almost like, "just add more volume, and the bass will play for you."
Let's say, playing a simple country bass-line (Root-5th) on the DB requires some efforts, but playing the same bass-line on the electric bass - "just relax and enjoy the ride."
It's not my personal approach to any bass-lines.
Nobody has canceled the dynamics, its range (that any MUSIC is full of) while playing the bass guitar.

I don't think that's what Turf3 was saying? Obvious that playing electric requires less fretting force than upright. Regarding dynamics, you can generate lots without using high fretting force, and generally speaking, the less you use, the faster you can play. Plus you won't need to see the hand surgeon quite as soon? The plucking hand is a different story.

 

[turf3]

(It's only my personal but deeply-rooted opinion.)
I don't like that nonchalant, "sleeping-beauty" attitude about playing - fretting - the bass guitar - like softly petting your cat.
It's almost like, "just add more volume, and the bass will play for you."
Let's say, playing a simple country bass-line (Root-5th) on the DB requires some efforts, but playing the same bass-line on the electric bass - "just relax and enjoy the ride."
It's not my personal approach to any bass-lines.
Nobody has canceled the dynamics, its range (that any MUSIC is full of) while playing the bass guitar.

The following is "paraphrase" of "Night in Tunisia" by Petros Klampanis.
I cannot imagine playing it on the bass guitar with that "sleeping beauty" attitude.

You're arguing against something I never wrote.

What I actually wrote (or, to be fair, intended to write, given that I may not have expressed myself well) - is that for people with medium or small size hands, playing OFPF on electric bass in lower positions requires a lot of microshifting of the hand back and forth to make the stretches. The FACT (it's not arguable; pick up and upright and play it for 10 minutes to demonstrate) that fretting forces on electric are lower, makes this practical. It is not practical for most players on upright bass to play OFPF because the stretches are even longer, the fretting forces are much higher, and you need to maintain the claw hand shape to finger notes accurately in low positions.

The point of this is that, being primarily an upright player, this is why I apply upright bass fingering to lower positions on electric. If I were to take up electric as a major focus and seriously woodshed it, I'm sure I'd have to move to OFPF on electric.

I never wrote that "the electric bass plays itself". That's a ridiculous interpretation of what I wrote above.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You're arguing against something I never wrote.

Yes, you have never written it.
You just correctly informed us that playing the DB requires more "fretting force."
I've just extrapolated your correct statement (used as solid foundation) with my (over the long term accumulated) opinion/observation.
That's it.
You are INNOCENT.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Regarding dynamics, you can generate lots without using high fretting force

Do you use "vibrato", any bending while playing the bass guitar?

I do, but...
That's my PERSONAL APPROACH.

Even playing the simplest country bass (Root-5th) pattern, my fretting hand applies different pressure on the fretboard.
But, it's just my personal approach.
(I even add a touch of "light vibrato" to those "more force" notes.)
But, it's just the way I play the bass guitar.

And even if million of other bass players would tell me, "You are wrong. You are doing it wrong" - I won't change it.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Do you use "vibrato", any bending while playing the bass guitar?

I do, but...
That's my PERSONAL APPROACH.

Even playing the simplest country bass (Root-5th) pattern, my fretting hand applies different pressure on the fretboard.
But, it's just my personal approach.
(I even add a touch of "light vibrato" to those "more force" notes.)
But, it's just the way I play the bass guitar.

View attachment 7415845

And even if million of other bass players would tell me, "You are wrong. You are doing it wrong" - I won't change it.

No argument with that. I'm mostly playing fretless these days, and yes I use vibrato, it just doesn't take much force to do so. I will admit I'm not much of a bender on my fretted basses, it's just not my style, but pulling the string sideways is different than fretting it harder. There's actually another TB member, Jazznfunk, who convinced me to try taking my thumb completely off the back of the neck and instead apply pressure from my upper arm and shoulder to fret. Anytime I find myself digging in too much with my fretting hand I go to that alternate technique to lighten things up, get the feel of using lighter pressure, before I put my thumb back. This has really helped my speed and endurance.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Anytime I find myself digging in too much with my fretting hand I go to that alternate technique to lighten things up, get the feel of using lighter pressure, before I put my thumb back. This has really helped my speed and endurance.

You have mentioned two subjects in your statement.

"Digging" with my fretting hand - Yes, I always apply it - with a different range of it, depending on the bass-line's requirement.
And, NO, I don't recommend "Digging" too much, but I'm a strong supporter/fan of "making the strings alive" with my fretting hand and its fingers.
I do glissando/sliding exercises (up/down) where I need to feel the fretboard.

Speed and endurance.

But of course, when the bass-line requires "SPEED(!)," I readjust my fretting hand pressure.

Just as a side note, sometimes I rehearse/exercise bass lines with the Metronome(!) only by using my fretting hand - no plucking hand involve.

 

[Wasnex]

It is not practical for most players on upright bass to play OFPF because the stretches are even longer, the fretting forces are much higher, and you need to maintain the claw hand shape to finger notes accurately in low positions.

FYI, Not OFPF but a 4 finger technique on upright.

 

[turf3]

FYI, Not OFPF but a 4 finger technique on upright.

All right, what we have here is a virtuoso double-bassist who says he will use 1-2-4, 1-3-4, and in higher positions 1-2-3-4 depending on what works best at the moment. Certainly in lower positions, using four fingers (and I think he does demonstrate using all four fingers in a chromatic run), requires some mini-shifts, just as using all four fingers in lower positions on electric bass would (though I'd call them micro shifts on electric and mini shifts on DB). And if one has the kind of playing experience he does, you're not going to lose the position or start playing out of tune from shifting the hand around.

But what I was saying is that for DB-primary players of more modest skill, mostly we go 1-2-4 or (less commonly)1-3-4 up to the neck heel on DB; and that in the lower positions on EB, that same fingering allows you to avoid the constant micro-shifts required in laying OFPF.

For EB-primary players, I expect (I can't speak from experience, I am NOT one) OFPF is the way to go in almost all positions, unless the scale length is just TOO much for some small-handed players.

In my case, using the same fingerings on EB and DB is suboptimal on EB, I know this, but I do it anyway because I don't have the time to commit to learning EB as a whole new and different instrument. If I became a virtuoso double-bassist, I am positive that I would find places where deviating from 1-2-4 even in lower positions would be helpful for certain passages. Certainly for me at this point in my life, and for many others, allowing the LH to flex all over the place is a risk of losing hand position and playing out of tune a lot.