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SX Stingray

#121
lonote said:
All I know for sure is that in a month there'll be dozens of threads here about how the SX SR copies are much better they are than the real EBMM's. Then there'll be all the modification freaks who will be talking about how great the SX version is now that they've spent $1,500 to replace the neck, body, bridge, tuners, pickups and electronics. I can hardly wait! :confused: :rollno:
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So where's the problem with that?:eyebrow:
No difference between that, and some kid taking their $4,000 used Honda and dumping 3x the amount they paid for it to "beef" it up.:rolleyes:
 
#122
toad said:
Really, no one who was ready to buy a Stingray is going to buy an SX, but they are obviously intrigued by the design. If the SX is as crappy as the EBMM fanatics want it to be, they are going to want the real thing even more. No one's going to play a crappy faux-Stingray and say, "Wow MM sucks." They are going to say, "Well, I'm going to have to buy a real Stingray."
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Exactly.
 
#123
lonote said:
All I know for sure is that in a month there'll be dozens of threads here about how the SX SR copies are much better they are than the real EBMM's. Then there'll be all the modification freaks who will be talking about how great the SX version is now that they've spent $1,500 to replace the neck, body, bridge, tuners, pickups and electronics. I can hardly wait!
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lonote -

You know you're my guy but I gotta ask -- "Where's the problem with this?"

The SX obviously isn't your bag but there's a bass out there for everybody -- why so much beef with the SX copies?
 
#124
I don't see the logic in this thread.

Some EBMM fans want to bash the SX line and claim that they are low quality and not worth the money or time. If they really felt confident in that belief then why worry at all? If a true EBMM is worlds better than a SX copy then EBMM has nothing to worry about.
 
#125
lonote said:
All I know for sure is that in a month there'll be dozens of threads here about how the SX SR copies are much better they are than the real EBMM's. Then there'll be all the modification freaks who will be talking about how great the SX version is now that they've spent $1,500 to replace the neck, body, bridge, tuners, pickups and electronics. I can hardly wait! :confused: :rollno:
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Come on, man. Neither of these things you "know for sure" will ever happen.
 
#127
Hi, IotaNet (& duckbutter)! I have no problem with SX stuff. I have no problem with the people who buy it and modify it. I think, though, that people should understand what they're getting and think about things, that's all. It is beginner gear pure and simple; designed and intended to be used for a while then sold to upgrade to a better quality instrument (i.e. "intermediate" instrument) just as all "student" quality instruments are, whether basses or clarinets or saxophones. There will be debates for as long as there's sunlight about whether SX or Squier or OLP is better although it doesn't really matter since some people will like one and dislike the others; they are all beginner instruments. I guess what I mean is that, whether you like to hear it or not, "beginner" or "student" instruments are not going to be as good as the instruments they copy...not now, not ever. You can modify them and greatly improve them, there's no doubt about that, but often the cost of the modifications exceeds the value of the instrument itself. Doing expensive mods on a cheap bass is fine as a learning experience and not a bad idea if you keep the instrument for a long time but it is not the way to go if you're looking at dollars and cents in the short term. I understand that some people (me included, under the right circumstances) are tinkerers. If, for example, you are a sax player you probably started off with a Bundy "student" sax, moved up to an "intermediate" grade Yamaha before buying a vintage Paris Selmer (a new classification...the "professional" instrument). Nobody in their right mind is going to say the "student" sax is better than the "pro" sax but I've seen lots of people post here that their $100 SX P-Bass (i.e. beginner) is better than a Fender American Series P-Bass (i.e. professional model). By the way, I'm not a gear snob by any stretch; I've got about $2,500, total, invested in 5 electric basses and an upright.
 
#128
This thread delivers.

I own a Bongo and a Sterling so obviously the SX copies do nothing for me.

However, I'm a very, very fortunate individual and I count my blessings to be able to not only afford, but maintain those two wonderful basses among a couple of others.

For those that cannot afford to drop the amount of cash it would take to buy an EB/MM product, why should we judge them for purchasing an SX? Also, they may simply prefer the instrument. Who knows.

If it's out-right illegal, why is Rondo still allowed to distribute the SX/Brice/Agile line in the states?
 
#129
I'm really bummed by these SX copies.

But not for the reason others are; I'm bummed because of all the air it seems to be taking up on TalkBass right now.

Not a big fan of others doing copies designed to have the essential look of another product, I seem to be on the backside of this argument as I see less harm to a specific maker of expensive instruments by others doing cheap knockoffs than the ones doing expensive knockoffs.

The more expensive copy of an established visual icon takes advantage of the benefit of the appearance that sells, thereby taking most of any advantage held by the original, whereas the cheapie knockoff is seen by all as inferior and only something to be bought in wishing they could have the better instrument.

Not an OLP or SX fan, but I really doubt they're going to do much more than build MusicMan GAS among their target audience, as opposed to taking sales away from the original as high quality "knockoffs" do.
 
#130
BlacktotheBlind said:
I don't see the logic in this thread.

Some EBMM fans want to bash the SX line and claim that they are low quality and not worth the money or time. If they really felt confident in that belief then why worry at all? If a true EBMM is worlds better than a SX copy then EBMM has nothing to worry about.
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i don't think the majority of people are talking about SX's quality or being worth people's time or money...i think the main point of this thread is that people are talking about how that new SX bass is almost an exact copy of the SR...put yourself in EBMM's perspective...what if you have spent a lot of time and effort designing a very good design, and then all of a sudden someone just makes a copy of your design and sells it for less money...what would you think?

i can see both sides of the argument, but that is something to think about...if someone blatently copied your design of anything...be it software, a car, a guitar or painting, and made money off it, wouldn't you be concerned?

this thread is kinda what i imagine a wal mart thread to be like :)
 
#131
superbassman2000 said:
i don't think the majority of people are talking about SX's quality or being worth people's time or money...i think the main point of this thread is that people are talking about how that new SX bass is almost an exact copy of the SR...put yourself in EBMM's perspective...what if you have spent a lot of time and effort designing a very good design, and then all of a sudden someone just makes a copy of your design and sells it for less money...what would you think?

i can see both sides of the argument, but that is something to think about...if someone blatently copied your design of anything...be it software, a car, a guitar or painting, and made money off it, wouldn't you be concerned?

this thread is kinda what i imagine a wal mart thread to be like :)
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well, EB bought the MM design...not terribly relevent but it should be known that EB didn't come up with the SR they just made it sound less awsome in my eyes. Im not happy with the newer MMs out there. doesn't hold a candle to the 79 im fortunate enough to own.

and i will buy an SX MM copy as soon as i hear one decent review. i need a back up that i can mod later if i so desire.
 
#133
hi,
ok, unlike most people here, i actually own an SX musicman copy.

I love, my, this musicman copy, and i am keeping it. But now i lust for that real ebmm even more (its 8000ringgit.. i cant aford it)

There are many cheapo brands here in Malaysia (been around here longer too), like the SX'es, that are built to supply the masses of the third world with good cheap instruments. The difference, only being.. it caught the attention of 'rich' masses of america and europe.

regards
norman
 
#134
Goat Lord said:
well, EB bought the MM design...not terribly relevent but it should be known that EB didn't come up with the SR they just made it sound less awsome in my eyes. Im not happy with the newer MMs out there. doesn't hold a candle to the 79 im fortunate enough to own.
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So you're saying modern Fenders are ripoffs too? CBS bought the company from Leo Fender, and then it was bought by a bunch of employees who wanted to make it better. FMIC has nothing to do with Leo Fender, therefore are they unoriginal too? I don't think so. They bought a company, and with it, came the designs, the knowledge, and the legal ability to put it to use.

The 3+1 headstock is still trademarked by Ernie Ball/Music Man.

Note that the other copies do not have a 3+1 headstock design. If SX were to switch to a 4 in line headstock or a 2+2, I wouldn't be all up in arms... but frankly, this is an obvious copy and blatant ripoff of a trademarked design.
 
#135
Eilif said:
The Three and One Headstock

History shows us that in EB copies the pickguard, body shape, bridge, control cover and pickup are not lawsuit issues, but would we be having this discussion if the SX basses had a 2&2 or 4 inline headstock?
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And here's the truth. I have nothing against SX for any other reason except this. Obvious trademark, more obvious copy.
Eilif said:
A fun bit of trivia: Jay turser basses are made so that you can rotate the outer bottom tuner and have a perfectly aligned 3&1 tuner arrangement. You just have to drill four tiny mounting screws. The present arrangement is a bit off, I wonder if early on Tursers had the 3&1 and had to change it, but did so with no real modification to the manufacturing process.
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Probably because Ernie Ball went after them for the 3+1 headstock infringement.

Either that or the guys at JT were simply smart enough to avoid it, but allow it to be switched to a 3+1, technically aftermarket with no modification. Smart on them. You can get a close copy, but Jay Turser isn't selling them, the owner is making it ;)
 
#136
This is totally RIDICULOUS!!!!

This continuous banter regarding licensing, theft, 3+1 headstock, and knockoffs is all a bunch of bull! Yes, I believe that we all have opinions, but to vehemently trash others in support of a product that you disagree with is just purely sour grapes (or hating as it's called in my neck of the woods).

I'm sure that you people who are arguing the morality of the licensing issue have only used your cassette recorder, VCR, CD burner, DVR, or DVD recorder to record JUST YOUR OWN intellectual property and haveNEVER transferred software, music, or video that you did not own to another medium without permission or consent from the copyright owner! Sure you may not have sold the copy that you made, but you still STOLE IT! The copyright owner received no profit from your gain, and you profited because you gained a product without paying the owner! So much for your moral stand. :eek:

Some of you need to bend over, take both of your hands, reach behind you, grab both of your ears, and pull untill you hear a loud POP! Producing a similar product based on a successful model created by a competitor has been a business practice that has been around for ages. How many of the dissenters (who were old enough) refused to utilize or purchase Microsoft's Windows 95 because it was a knockoff of Macintosh’s OS that was created in 87? Some of you may have even gotten an unlicensed copy of this knockoff product! The auto industry has done it; how many cars do we see that are virtually indistinguishable to the common public?:confused: Should Chrysler pursue litigation against all of the other car manufactrers that create mini-vans because they were the first?!?! Oh wait, maybe the current owners of Fender should sue all of the other manufacturers of electric basses that created them without the consent of Leo!!!!

The SX brand is no true threat to EB. Honestly, by selling a knockoff, it only stands to reason that EB shall reap the benefit of additional exposure of their somewhat uniquely patented design. If you don't believe it, maybe you need to do some research and check out a guy by the name of Tyler Perry, and then tell me how much bootlegging and knockoffs hurt!

If you own a EBMM, we're happy for you. Take pride in the fact that you have one. It is possible in the near future the value of your EBMM could go up because of so many knockoffs in the marketplace. Hopefully this little tidbit could help you remove the sand out of the crack of your four pointed contact that's gotten you so irritated.:D

Now shake hands and go play something.:bassist:

Peace!
 
#137
Billy Low said:
This is totally RIDICULOUS!!!!

This continuous banter regarding licensing, theft, 3+1 headstock, and knockoffs is all a bunch of bull! Yes, I believe that we all have opinions, but to vehemently trash others in support of a product that you disagree with is just purely sour grapes (or hating as it's called in my neck of the woods).

I'm sure that none of you people who are arguing the morality of the licensing issue have only used your cassette recorder, VCR, CD burner, DVR, or DVD recorder to record JUST YOUR OWN intellectual property and haveNEVER transferred software, music, or video that you did not own to another medium without permission or consent from the copyright owner! Sure you may not have sold the copy that you made, but you still STOLE IT! The copyright owner received no profit from your gain, and you profited because you gained a product without paying the owner! So much for your moral stand. :eek:

Some of you need to bend over, take both of your hands, reach behind you, grab both of your ears, and pull untill you hear a loud POP! Producing a similar product based on a successful model created by a competitor has been a business practice that has been around for ages. How many of the dissenters (who were old enough) refused to utilize or purchase Microsoft's Windows 95 because it was a knockoff of Macintosh’s OS that was created in 87? Some of you may have even gotten an unlicensed copy of this knockoff product! The auto industry has done it; how many cars do we see that are virtually indistinguishable to the common public?:confused: Should Chrysler pursue litigation against all of the other car manufactrers that create mini-vans because they were the first?!?! Oh wait, maybe the current owners of Fender should sue all of the other manufacturers of electric basses that created them without the consent of Leo!!!!

The SX brand is no true threat to EB. Honestly, by selling a knockoff, it only stands to reason that EB shall reap the benefit of additional exposure of their somewhat uniquely patented design. If you don't believe it, maybe you need to do some research and check out a guy by the name of Tyler Perry, and then tell me how much bootlegging and knockoffs hurt!

If you own a EBMM, we're happy for you. Take pride in the fact that you have one. It is possible in the near future the value of your EBMM could go up because of so many knockoffs in the marketplace. Hopefully this little tidbit could help you remove the sand out of the crack of your four pointed contact that's gotten you so irritated.:D

Now shake hands and go play something.:bassist:

Peace!
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[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#138
tplyons said:
So you're saying modern Fenders are ripoffs too? CBS bought the company from Leo Fender, and then it was bought by a bunch of employees who wanted to make it better. FMIC has nothing to do with Leo Fender, therefore are they unoriginal too? I don't think so. They bought a company, and with it, came the designs, the knowledge, and the legal ability to put it to use.

The 3+1 headstock is still trademarked by Ernie Ball/Music Man.

Note that the other copies do not have a 3+1 headstock design. If SX were to switch to a 4 in line headstock or a 2+2, I wouldn't be all up in arms... but frankly, this is an obvious copy and blatant ripoff of a trademarked design.
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no no no no no no no! I didnt say anything about them having the right to sue somebody. All I was poking at was the fact they didn't "design" the bass them selves...they own it, but didn't design it. Furhtermore i followed it with "its not terribly important" ...which one could easily infir that I wasn't giving SX fre liscence, but was smering EB for doing a $h*t job.

sorry if you dont agree
 
#140
I don't see the big deal. How many copies of the Fender Jazz are there? Not just the cheap beginner basses either. Almost every high end or boutique builder has a copy Fender Jazz model. One builder that comes to mind does not even have an original design that I know of, just Fender copies. I don't see any threads bashing them.

I have also read a few posts here that claim it that a modded SX would cost as much for an American Fender...I beg to differ.
SX bass = $120 - $160
new bridge = $100
new pups = $150
pickgaurd = $30
Note prices are approximate.
This is about as far as most projects go so you're looking at about $400 - $440...about the same price as a MIM Fender. If you want to go a little crazy and get a new neck...about $170 from Wamoth. That still puts you at about half of an American Fender. This is probably one of the best platforms to start a project bass...which is one of the reasons they are so popular, not to mention you get a whole bass for less than the price of a Warmoth body.
 

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