Double Bass Tailpiece saddle extension on an 1882 August Gemunder 7/8

[Steve Swan]

This time tested tailpiece saddle extension was mounted to an 1882 August Gemunder 7/8 flatback many decades ago by Pancho of the now defunct World of Strings in Long Beach, CA. The substantially thick plates of the painted maple (?) have successfully withstood the test of time with orchestral tension strings on a 43 1/8" (109.5 cm).

 

[LouisF]

Steve,

What's the purpose of these raised saddles in your opinion? I've heard everything from taking pressure off the top to putting the fingerboard to bridge string length at an easier and more responsive angle. Thanks
Best,
Louis

 

[DoubleMIDI]

You only know after you have tried it. A raised saddle diminishes the string angle at the bridge which reduces downward pressure on the top.
If your bass would sound better that way or not depends a lot on your instrument.
I installed an adjustable saddle (Moser HVU, available at Thomann) on my bass because there was some sinkage of the top that could be easily seen when looking at the top wings at the bass side of the instrument.

The Moser HVU has three positions: The lowest is a bit higher than the original saddle but not much. The middle does reduce pressure more, but volume got lost on my bass.
The highest one reduces pressure a lot, but looses a lot of power.
But the point is that you can try different saddle heights and select the best one for your instrument with the strings you use.
You need to fit the HVU to your instrument and need a hardwood piece to let the HVU stay away from your basses top.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Louis,

A raised saddle is basically a cheat. It affects the break angle over the bridge just slightly, and at minimal cost, but nowhere near the degree that changing the angle of the neck set or the degree of overstand will.

Perhaps the most fascinating thing about violin family instruments I’ve learned is that the corpus functions similarly to an eggshell. Eggshells are fragile, but try to crush one end-to-end in your hand.

 

[LouisF]

Intersting... thanks

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Lutheirie is geometry, physics, thermodynamics, chemistry, woodworking, history, art criticism, and about 12 other disciplines combined.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

A raised saddle is basically a cheat. It affects the break angle over the bridge just slightly, and at minimal cost, but nowhere near the degree that changing the angle of the neck set or the degree of overstand will.

From my own experience with the adjustable Moser HVU saddle I can say that it is anything but a cheat.
You can calculate the pressure difference by measuring the string angle at the bridge for the normal and a raised saddle (I think the HVU can raise about 4 cm) and then draw the parallelogram of forces for both angles using the same length for all "arms" of the parallelogram. Then measure the height in the parallelogram and compare them the difference in percent gives you the difference of the pressure of the top. You might even be able to calculate the height, but I would need to look up how to do that.
The key is to be able to measure the angle difference which might be not that easy. I would measure the current string angle at the instrument, transfer string angle, length between bridge and saddle on paper. If you want to reduce size keep the angle but reduce any length (bridge to saddle distance, raised saddle length) by the same percentage. I think half size should work on a large piece of paper.
Draw in the new connection from bridge to raised saddle and measure the new angle.
If you also draw a part of the vibrating string, you can even draw the parallelogram of forces into that (by using equal length "arms" as I mentioned before).

By doing that you can proof if I am wrong with my experience or KFS who thinks that it is a cheat.

Compare with the tension difference of string sets (use my Excel file in my Dropbox, link in signature) to get tension data of different sets. String tension difference translates linearly to top pressure difference, so you can compare the percentage of string tension difference directly to the percentage of top pressure difference for different saddle heights.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

See, that’s what I get for using language loosely by trying to be cute.

By “cheat,” I meant a raised saddle is an inexpensive tweak that is less invasive than a more radical change to the existing geometry of an instrument.

 

[LouisF]

Hey, I have enough problems with the angle of the bow on the string! I ditched algebra to hang in the band room. Seriously, I am always impressed at the magic good luthiers can work. Thank you
Louis

 

[Steve Swan]

This has been an exceptionally busy and demanding work week, so sorry about the delayed response, Louis. There is nothing quite like playing a bass that is truly in balance with itself. With the various changes that can be made to accomplish a different string length, neck angle, over stand height, and effective tailpiece saddle height, there is a tremendous amount of modification that can be done to make a beautiful sounding instrument that is relatively easy to play.

In the specific case of this Neuner & Hornsteiner, the original maple neck had been shortened with a beech wood scroll graft from about 46 1/4" (117.5 cm !) to about 44 3/4" ("only" 113.7 cm). After the scroll graft, the over stand was 25 mm, but was extended with a tapered wedge under the fingerboard to 33 mm. The current bridge height is a fairly modest 70 mm. If it was a 4 string bass, I would like to see a bridge height of about 85 mm on this instrument. The current height of the tailpiece saddle extension is 55 mm. Strung with a solo gauge set to offset the tension of the very long string length, this bass plays very easily and rewards with a huge, balanced voice. The 6 foot tall owner has played this bass in jazz and orchestral settings for over 45 years, but it is getting to be too big and heavy to take to gigs at his current age of 86. This 5 string bass is one of only three 5 string basses that have come through the shop in the last 20 years that played easily and had a good tone all of the way down to a B in jazz pizz settings. It is remarkable how little the very long string length effects the feel and playability. This kind of instrument is not for everybody, but is fun to play and rewarding to hear when approached by a much wider range of musicians than one might think possible. Balance.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

See, that’s what I get for using language loosely by trying to be cute.

By “cheat,” I meant a raised saddle is an inexpensive tweak that is less invasive than a more radical change to the existing geometry of an instrument.

Sorry, since English is not my native language I have misunderstood your cuteness.

Anyway, the description how to measure the pressure difference might be of some use to somebody.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

No problem at all. The error was mine.

By cute, I meant flip, if that word is more familiar to you.

 

[gnypp45]

The current bridge height is a fairly modest 70 mm. If it was a 4 string bass, I would like to see a bridge height of about 85 mm on this instrument. The current height of the tailpiece saddle extension is 55 mm.

I think you mean 170 mm, not 70 mm. Both my 5-string basses have bridges that are 176 mm high.

Do you mean that for a standard 4-string arco setup on this bass (with its presumably wide body) you would recommend 185 mm bridge height?

 

[Ortsom2]

Steve, thanks for sharing that.

Louis, further to what is mentioned, saddle height is used to balance the bridge, i.e. making sure that the string's load properly points in the bridge's soles, with soles square to the back of the bridge. That way the instrument sounds better, and the bridge crest has less tendency to move up over time. Balance.

KFS, no, it is not a 'cheat' by any common dictionary definition of that word.
And each mm additional saddle height is actually more effective in reducing breakover than each mm additional overstand, because the bridge is normally closer to the saddle than to the heel.

 

[afroblue]

You only know after you have tried it. A raised saddle diminishes the string angle at the bridge which reduces downward pressure on the top.
If your bass would sound better that way or not depends a lot on your instrument.


The Moser HVU has three positions: The lowest is a bit higher than the original saddle but not much. The middle does reduce pressure more, but volume got lost on my bass.
The highest one reduces pressure a lot, but looses a lot of power.
But the point is that you can try different saddle heights and select the best one for your instrument with the strings you use.

Seems to me that this would be most useful on getting 5 string basses to speak better then? I’m contemplating a 5 with a high C ( mostly jazz, some arco) . and I’ve read that due to the extra pressure on the top caused by an extra string, they don’t resonate as much?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Seems to me that this would be most useful on getting 5 string basses to speak better then? I’m contemplating a 5 with a high C ( mostly jazz, some arco) . and I’ve read that due to the extra pressure on the top caused by an extra string, they don’t resonate as much?

My bass (Emanuel Wilfer, Möhrendorf, close to Bubenreuth and Erlangen near Nürnberg) was built for five strings.
I thought the top sunk because of too much pressure with Spirocore Mittel 4/4 (S42) on my 110 cm scale instrument. So I installed the height adjustable saddle.
BTW, the top is rather thick (about 8 mm at the f-holes) and the whole instrument rather heavy.

Later I was told by an experienced bass luthier that it most probably (he didn’t see the bass) was not the pressure by the strings but the top shrinking in width over the years/decades that pulled the top down. Another bass luthier who has Examinator the instrument told me that I should keep it as is as there is no structural problem currently.
Nothing has changed over the last years, the sound and playability for a rather cheap carved German bass is still good, so I can live with it as it is now.

The volume is reduced the higher the saddle is set, so I use the middle position now but could change either to the low position or the original saddle that I kept.
I the high position the bass looses too much volume and bite.

If a 4-string gets converted to a 5-string that might be a whole different story.
But if you have normal tension steel core strings on a 4-string that got converted, lower tension strings like Tempera/downtuned Solo strings might compensate this.

 

[james condino]

Anything that can help me make major voicing and or setup decisions using minor adjustment tools is a win from my perspective. Bridge adjusters vs having multiple bridges, variable height saddles, soundposts that are not nailed into one position, adjustable necks.....all of that is 100 times easier AND useful compared to removing a top and getting the chisels out removing wood, changing bassbars, et cetera.