"Talent" and "being born with it"

[fdeck]

Of what I've read, this was the better overview: This Is Your Brain on Music by Daniel J. Levitin: 9780452288522 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

This one is also fascinating, but it's more of an oddball collection of music-related brain conditions: Musicophilia | Oliver Sacks, M.D. | Author, Neurologist | On The Move, Hallucinations, Musicophilia, Awakenings, The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat

I enjoyed Musicophilia, along the lines of Sacks's other books. The thing that fascinated me is that there are people who simply lack major functions that seem essential for music. For instance, some people have no sense of pitch at all, some can't perceive music in any form. [0] And Sacks is careful to point out that these are people who have no apparent physical lesions or other noticeable abnormalities in their brains.

I lean towards your view that musical "talent" is at the very least a collection of multiple factors, that would make it hard to pin down scientifically. Yet we all have a good hunch that talent exists: A world without it would be hard to explain away, given widespread examples of musical prodigies and geniuses.

[0] This thought came to mind when reading the thread about people who join jam sessions but apparently can't perceive tuning or make coherent music. It may be that they have learned the social behaviors of musicians and audience members without any way of understanding what those behaviors actually relate to.

 

[retslock]

there is no such thing as being born with it. Talent comes from one place.
its called hard work. John Myung practiced 6 hours a day everyday. Cliff Burton practiced 6 hours a day everyday. Billy Sheehan takes his bass everywhere, thats how much he practices.

Hard Work....its a lost art.

Talent is the aptitude you had before you did the work. Capability is what you get from work. Talent is what you were born with. This is so obvious in children who display remarkable ability when they have not done any work at all. You misunderstand the word talent. It is not acquired. That is capability. They aren’t the same thing. Citing great players who worked hard doesn’t disprove the existence of natural aptitude otherwise known as talent.

 

[retslock]

so what? who says you have to play like him? play like ACRock. thats what matters. Besides John Myung might be a great bass player, but the music they make would suggest they are mediocre.

You’re missing the point. Some will work very very hard and not reach a high level of ability (as opposed to talent). Some don’t have to work that hard to reach a high level. The difference? Talent.

 

[retslock]

Listen to a very young Michael Jackson sing "Who's Lovin' You" and tell me only hard work will make a kid singer that good.

There’s a wonderful video of a cute little kid singing Bob Marley’s Three Little Birds (I originally mistakenly called it Everything’s Gonna Be Alright). I tried to upload it but can’t for some reason. He hasn’t been alive long enough to do “the work” yet he displays excellent pitch and phrasing. He has natural talent that he was born with. Others who are citing how much work great players have done are not disproving the existence of talent. Natural aptitude (talent) plus hard work equals greatness. Hard work without talent will improve capability but won’t achieve greatness.

 

[JimmyM]

There’s a wonderful video of a cute little kid singing Bob Marley’s Everything’s Gonna Be Alright. I tried to upload it but can’t for some reason. He hasn’t been alive long enough to do “the work” yet he displays excellent pitch and phrasing. He has natural talent that he was born with. Others who are citing how much work great players have done are not disproving the existence of talent. Natural aptitude (talent) plus hard work equals greatness. Hard work without talent will improve capability but won’t achieve greatness.

Great post, but the song is called "Three Little Birds"

 

[retslock]

Great post, but the song is called "Three Little Birds"

Thanks, I wasn’t sure.. I’ll edit my post.

 

[whero]

I think you’re misinterpreting the word talent. What you called “a good ear” is actually the talent you were born with. Your father had ability that he worked hard to get but he didn’t have the talent you were born with. Talent is not what you learned how to do. Talent is the aptitude for it that you had BEFORE you did the work.
From the Cambridge English Dictionary:
(someone who has) a natural ability to be good at something, especially without being taught:

But part of my point, from my original post, is that I believe my "talent" was also learned, perhaps just not in a "formal" way.

My parents were always playing music in the house - my mother was a fan of The Beatles but also played a lot of albums from the Beach Boys, Elvis Presley, Neil Diamond and Joni Mitchell; my father played a lot of stuff like Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr, Nat King Cole, but he also played a lot of jazz albums from people like Charlie Parker, Cannonball Adderley and Dave Brubeck. So I grew up with the house full of these different musical styles. My older brother has no musical ability but is a big music fan, and it was his record collection where I first heard the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Deep Purple and Steely Dan. Whenever I got together with friends we'd put albums on - and really listen to them. By the time I was 10 or 11 I had been introduced to the Allman Brothers, Led Zeppelin, Lou Reed and the Who. By my early teens I had discovered Cream, Jackson Browne, Fleetwood Mac, Supertramp and Genesis.

I think it was this constant exposure to a wide range of musical genres from my earliest memories that developed my "ear". You can't be exposed to music for hours a day, every day, probably from the day I as born until my 20s, and not pick something up.

 

[retslock]

But part of my point, from my original post, is that I believe my "talent" was also learned, perhaps just not in a "formal" way.

My parents were always playing music in the house - my mother was a fan of The Beatles but also played a lot of albums from the Beach Boys, Elvis Presley, Neil Diamond and Joni Mitchell; my father played a lot of stuff like Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr, Nat King Cole, but he also played a lot of jazz albums from people like Charlie Parker, Cannonball Adderley and Dave Brubeck. So I grew up with the house full of these different musical styles. My older brother has no musical ability but is a big music fan, and it was his record collection where I first heard the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Deep Purple and Steely Dan. Whenever I got together with friends we'd put albums on - and really listen to them. By the time I was 10 or 11 I had been introduced to the Allman Brothers, Led Zeppelin, Lou Reed and the Who. By my early teens I had discovered Cream, Jackson Browne, Fleetwood Mac, Supertramp and Genesis.

I think it was this constant exposure to a wide range of musical genres from my earliest memories that developed my "ear". You can't be exposed to music for hours a day, every day, probably from the day I as born until my 20s, and not pick something up.

Of course you gained a great deal from that musical environment. Your father also lived in the same environment but your ear is better. The environment let you use what you were born with. Your father worked hard, became proficient and worked as a musician but even in that same environment as you, never had your natural ability. Surely you can see the difference in your musical natures within the same musical household. You don’t acquire or work to attain aptitude but work will enhance it and let it flourish.

 

[Bass Viking]

Natural aptitude (talent) plus hard work equals greatness. Hard work without talent will improve capability but won’t achieve greatness.

+1. If I practiced 8 hours a day I’d be a better player than I currently am but still wouldn’t be as good as Jaco.

 

[beatmachine pro]

i think i reached my 'level of talent' fairly early and never surpassed it the holes in my knowledge base really never got filled in

i would really like to think of the bass as an extention of myself
but really i use a lot of tricks so i seem like im doing more than i am

i think of myself as pushing against a rubber band,..the harder i work and practice the lower the returns, it seems like there would be a breakthrough, but maybe its a matter of co-ordination

i remember it was easier to learn when i was young
now i do a lot more with less

 

[Paul New]

I enjoyed Musicophilia, along the lines of Sacks's other books. The thing that fascinated me is that there are people who simply lack major functions that seem essential for music. For instance, some people have no sense of pitch at all, some can't perceive music in any form. [0] And Sacks is careful to point out that these are people who have no apparent physical lesions or other noticeable abnormalities in their brains.

I lean towards your view that musical "talent" is at the very least a collection of multiple factors, that would make it hard to pin down scientifically. Yet we all have a good hunch that talent exists: A world without it would be hard to explain away, given widespread examples of musical prodigies and geniuses.

[0] This thought came to mind when reading the thread about people who join jam sessions but apparently can't perceive tuning or make coherent music. It may be that they have learned the social behaviors of musicians and audience members without any way of understanding what those behaviors actually relate to.

Before reading Musicophilia I had no idea that synesthesia isn't a normal music experience.

 

[Paul New]

+1. If I practiced 8 hours a day I’d be a better player than I currently am but still wouldn’t be as good as Jaco.

You are a member of a very large club.

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

So here is something I have been thinking about.

I got talking to one guy some weeks ago about instruments and I have mentioned that I play the bass.

His response was something akin to 'i wish I was that talented'.

Being talented...

I don't think having talent is a thing. I think with practice, repetition, studying and playing you can be as skilled at music and playing and instrument as anyone else.

I was watching an interview with Jaco Pastorius and he said that he was born with "it", and you know, maybe he was... But then he said he spent hours upon hours just practicing and playing and studying.

I personally do not believe in talent, it's just work. I would say that I do not have any ability that I have had when I was born, instead I practice and put the hours in and eventually i get better.

The whole concept of being talented and someone telling me that I am talented is lowkey insulting because it implies that I havent worked hard for my ability to play, which I have.

Do you share similar views on this? Or do you believe something else?

Thanks!

Learning and practice can take you far, however..........

I have played with a few that their considerable musical education did not help their tin ear or atrocious sense of timing, they could, though lecture the rest of us on theory while still being unable to play in the groove.

The education and diploma they earned were from name schools.

For the record.....others I worked with that had a musical education have been a blessing.

My biggest surprise was I never expected the sub-par ones to be that bad, like a Dr. from John Hopkins that did not believe in handwashing?

 

[Cecilia]

Learning and practice can take you far, however..........

I have played with a few that their considerable musical education did not help their tin ear or atrocious sense of timing, they could, though lecture the rest of us on theory while still being unable to play in the groove.

The education and diploma they earned were from name schools.

For the record.....others I worked with that had a musical education have been a blessing.

My biggest surprise was I never expected the sub-par ones to be that bad, like a Dr. from John Hopkins that did not believe in handwashing?

Sadly, colleges and conservatories are now for profit and degrees are for sale. I've experienced the same thing you have and it's very sad that students are duped into believing that they can make it it music when they are so lacking in skills....

 

[BAG]

without drive, folks don't become master players.

Amen to that. I knew a couple guys (one guitarist, one keyboard player) back when I was a kid and they were both amazing: they could pick up any song in minutes, do creative solos, sing really well and in short do it all. But both were content to just cruise along and do the minimum amount of work. "They coulda been contenders!"

My daughter that I mentioned earlier is in that camp. She had a serious amount of natural talent but didn't have the desire/drive or love of music to became exceptional.

She was showing some real talent on guitar quite young and, even though she was progressing well with me as her teacher, I wanted her to learn from someone much more talented than me. We were on the mid-north coast of NSW and heard about a semi-retired guitar teacher in the area who was a world renowned flamenco guitarist in his time. He would only take on new students by referral from someone he trusted and we were lucky that he agreed to teach my girl. We had to drive nearly an hour out of town, then down a dirt track for 15 mins that wound up a hill to a small cottage in the middle of nowhere.... a real artists retreat. At the second or third lesson he pulled me aside and said that she was one of the best at her age he had come across, which blew me away a little. Unfortunately we moved only a couple of months later to a town nearly 10 hours away.

She continued to improve but practiced less and less as the years went on. Watching TV was more important to her than playing music. As mentioned in the earlier post, she hardly ever plays now. If she'd really loved her music she could have been exceptional. As it is, she's still pretty good.

How many here find math (pick any subject) easy to understand and apply and how many always struggled with it ?

I knew a roadie back in the 80's who was as close to a mathematical genius as i've ever met. He completed the highest level of high school math's (year 12 in Australia) before he'd even finished year 9 when he dropped out. He just could not grasp any of the other subjects at all, but he could glance at a time sheet and, in a couple of seconds, tell you how much you were going to be paid and how much tax would come out, to the cent.

 

[retslock]

I started singing around 1965 and have sung in bands since then. I can tell you that being a bass player I have done a great deal of work trying to sing better including formal lessons and many hours of practice.
The kid in the clip below has not done that work - not by a country mile - and about 50 years.
He sings with fairly good pitch and phrasing and obviously loves it. He will get better as he grows. He is already naturally gifted and will be a much better singer than I ever could be.
This is what talent is. Not what you gained from work but the aptitude you were born with. I’m stunned that so many responders here can not see that reality.

 

[Tommyc]

Sadly, colleges and conservatories are now for profit and degrees are for sale. I've experienced the same thing you have and it's very sad that students are duped into believing that they can make it it music when they are so lacking in skills....

There are indeed such schools, but the music schools in the world of the very highest rank have no degrees for sale. No amount of money will get you into the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia. Audition and invitation only. Once in, your education will be free.

 

[Bass Viking]

I have played with a few that their considerable musical education did not help their tin ear or atrocious sense of timing, they could, though lecture the rest of us on theory while still being unable to play in the groove.

They lack the talent to realize how bad they are. People who suck and know it are actually better off.

 

[murph7489]

It is not possible for someone not born with innate talent to conceive innate talent. I don't understand why this is even a thing to talk about. There will be people saying it exists, and people saying it doesn't. Those who say it doesn't do not, by definition, have it. Otherwise they would know. And those who do have it do not need to talk about it, so they stay silent.

After reading this entire thread, I have come to the conclusion that LBS is right about this ^^
Before I read the whole thing I thought, meh...I don't know about that...but reading the responses has changed my mind...yeah

 

[Tommyc]

The concept of work and the moral value that’s placed on it is so firmly enculturated that many people react to the notion of innate human gifts with skepticism. I suspect if talent were for sale and one had to pay for it, it would be acknowledged as plain as the nose on one’s face.