I voted 'no' but I actually think both choices 1 & 2 should apply. I don't think 'endorsers' should be able to post new threads/unsolicited info (advertisements?) along the lines of 'I just tried the new Wombat treefiddy and it buries the competition'. If I want to read an ads about Wombats I'll go to their web site. But I also think that if the info is solicited then a disclosure must be made.
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TalkBass Policy Poll
- Thread starter paul
- Start date
I found it along time ago... it's called (don't kill me)... practice.
Back to the topic at hand
*Warning* Uh, Mr. Johnson, I believe you're going to have to place a tag under your username, below the signature line, and across your forehead, since affiliation with said practice brings your personal and professional compensation.
Carry on.
Uh, Mr. Johnson, I believe you're going to have to place a tag under your username, below the signature line, and across your forehead, since affiliation with said practice brings your personal and professional compensation.
Carry on.
Ain't that the truth.
Practice... who knew?
I have a new personal bass that will be done in a few weeks. I know many people would like to see it. I can't start a thread about it and I understand why. Even though it's not for sale, someone might like to buy one like it.
Looks like we are in the minority on this one, and I don't get it.
Why would I want to pay good money to advertise here, when I can give a guy a new amp that cost me, say for kicks $600, and he can post thread after thread praising it, and my other products he doesn't even use.
and have him take shots at the competition. Along with intercepting purchases when people post should I buy A or B and he jumps in with, you should really buy C because I used to be with A and they are too expensive and........
You can PM me a picture.
I'd like to see it and your not part of the problem.
Looks like we are in the minority on this one, and I don't get it.
Why would I want to pay good money to advertise here, when I can give a guy a new amp that cost me, say for kicks $600, and he can post thread after thread praising it, and my other products he doesn't even use.
I don't think you guys are alone. Check the poll. I ain't so keen on folks hocking their wares when other folks just trying to talk about their gear. Unforturnately, this wide net can catch too many, but also the nature of the voluntary disclosure means some get by.
OT: The thing I hated the most about touring wasn't sleeping on floors and cooking on a two-burner coleman stove. It was being bombarded with billboards while trying to enjoy the countryside.
I voted 1.
However, I think the keyword here is unsolicited. Any people who receive discounts, kickbacks, commission, gear or other perks from a company should refrain from STARTING threads promoting/reviewing that gear, or posting irrelevant suggestions regarding gear choices (ie. a 8x10 for a practice combo, a sadowsky for a beater bass).
However, i think that if they have received or bought a limited edition/one-of-a-kind instrument/gear, they should be allowed to post about it. I mean, if he didn't review it, who could? Still the disclosure is completely necessary, of course.
Other than that, i think they bring some special information that the rest of us aren't privy to, so i guess they should be allowed to suggest the gear they use, but only when the suggestion is clearly of the appropriate tone, price range, and look that the OP is asking for.
However, I think the keyword here is unsolicited. Any people who receive discounts, kickbacks, commission, gear or other perks from a company should refrain from STARTING threads promoting/reviewing that gear, or posting irrelevant suggestions regarding gear choices (ie. a 8x10 for a practice combo, a sadowsky for a beater bass).
However, i think that if they have received or bought a limited edition/one-of-a-kind instrument/gear, they should be allowed to post about it. I mean, if he didn't review it, who could? Still the disclosure is completely necessary, of course.
Other than that, i think they bring some special information that the rest of us aren't privy to, so i guess they should be allowed to suggest the gear they use, but only when the suggestion is clearly of the appropriate tone, price range, and look that the OP is asking for.
There seems to be some concern that a policy of disclosure can't be enforced (which is true) but I don't think that should be used as a reason to not have a disclosure policy. It seems likely that the vast majority of endorsed or compensated bass players will follow a known disclosure policy voluntarily and this will be of benefit to TB over not having such a policy at all for fear that a few will break the rules.
This is an overwhelmingly respectful forum and I suspect that any member who is going to purposefully break a set policy by advocating for a company as if they were unbiased yet were essentially compensated for their favorable opinions would be "found out" after a awhile and find themselves on the receiving end of some negative posts.
This is an overwhelmingly respectful forum and I suspect that any member who is going to purposefully break a set policy by advocating for a company as if they were unbiased yet were essentially compensated for their favorable opinions would be "found out" after a awhile and find themselves on the receiving end of some negative posts.
I want to jump in and thank everyone so far for such great comments and insightful thoughts. I'm glad I posted this.
I may be wrong but it looks like we're basically split into two camps:
-Those who just want to read about new gear, the latest stuff, etc and are fine with making their own judgment call given a disclore. (The majority of TB'ers)
-Those who see potential unfairness in the business practice of companies using endorsing artists to be their public voice, bypassing any commercial posting limitations.
Those who say it'd be difficult to enforce or force people underground - I appreciate that viewpoint, but I think we really have to just think of what's 'right' for TalkBass, and worry about enforcement later or dishonesty later.
So what to do. The poll outcome is clear. But from a business standpoint the potential for abuse is also very clear. Why pay for advertising when you could just send out free gear to a TB personality for favorable review? As the one who has to sell advertising to keep us online, this is obviously a concern of mine. And as the steward of this community, having this kind of material on the site, disclaimer or not, is also a concern of mine. For every 1 TB'er who knows a poster's style and history and affiliations and can make a good judgment call, there are 100 guests who come in 'green'.
What to do.. The disclosure is obviously a must. And the sig line isn't going to cut it (as someone pointed out some have sigs disabled in their prefs). The additional profile field idea is great IMO - I'll look into this asap. This would also be a great place for CUP disclosures, this would free up the usertitle.
Beyond the disclosure - slapping down a forumwide rule I don't think is an option, given the poll outcome and given some of the issues raised in this thread regarding who exactly would be affected. I think the best course may be to 'play this by ear', on a case-by-case basis. IE if an endorsing artists takes things too far and generates user complaints, we could open a dialog with that specific user and make 'recommendations'?
I may be wrong but it looks like we're basically split into two camps:
-Those who just want to read about new gear, the latest stuff, etc and are fine with making their own judgment call given a disclore. (The majority of TB'ers)
-Those who see potential unfairness in the business practice of companies using endorsing artists to be their public voice, bypassing any commercial posting limitations.
Those who say it'd be difficult to enforce or force people underground - I appreciate that viewpoint, but I think we really have to just think of what's 'right' for TalkBass, and worry about enforcement later or dishonesty later.
So what to do. The poll outcome is clear. But from a business standpoint the potential for abuse is also very clear. Why pay for advertising when you could just send out free gear to a TB personality for favorable review? As the one who has to sell advertising to keep us online, this is obviously a concern of mine. And as the steward of this community, having this kind of material on the site, disclaimer or not, is also a concern of mine. For every 1 TB'er who knows a poster's style and history and affiliations and can make a good judgment call, there are 100 guests who come in 'green'.
What to do.. The disclosure is obviously a must. And the sig line isn't going to cut it (as someone pointed out some have sigs disabled in their prefs). The additional profile field idea is great IMO - I'll look into this asap. This would also be a great place for CUP disclosures, this would free up the usertitle.
Beyond the disclosure - slapping down a forumwide rule I don't think is an option, given the poll outcome and given some of the issues raised in this thread regarding who exactly would be affected. I think the best course may be to 'play this by ear', on a case-by-case basis. IE if an endorsing artists takes things too far and generates user complaints, we could open a dialog with that specific user and make 'recommendations'?
Looks like we are in the minority on this one, and I don't get it.
Why would I want to pay good money to advertise here, when I can give a guy a new amp that cost me, say for kicks $600, and he can post thread after thread praising it, and my other products he doesn't even use.
Hopefully people will see through that BS and call it what it is. That's what usually happens now... people think someone is a shill and raise the shill flag, sometimes correctly, sometimes not.
Not everyone is cursed with a conscience so people will figure out a way to do this no matter what.
- Nov 3, 2004
- 485
- 71
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Hipshot Products, DR Strings and Accugroove Speaker Cabinets
I just want to point out that some artist endorse gear that they love.
I used to be a DR endorser, but I ended that relationship, and am now an SIT endorser. I get all of my strings for free, sure, but I jumped on the opportunity, because of how much I like the product and the customer service. The strings are great, and so are the people at the company.
Also, I have an "artist price" (1/2 off) deal with Hipshot. I've been using Hipshot poducts since 1986. I was one of David Borisoff's very first customers. I bought my first de-tuner out of his garage in Van Nuys, CA. I got onto the endorsement roster, two years ago. I have LOVED their stuff for 20 years. Does the credibility of my opinion, somehow change now that I'm an endorser?
I received a Jazz bass from Fender, for free, about six or seven years ago. That's the only instrument they gave me, and I'm not on their roster. Does that count as an endorsement?
I purchased a G&L L200 in 1986. It's been my main instrument, since then (that's what I put the first de-tuner on). Last year I was offered an "artist price" endorsement (1/2 price). Although I haven't purchased a new one yet, I've played G&L for more than 20 years. Is my credibility somehow skewed now that I agreed to an "artist deal"?
Finally, I'd be happy to add all of this to my sig, but the option does not allow enough characters to include all of the info I would need to list, including my applicable web URLs.
I used to be a DR endorser, but I ended that relationship, and am now an SIT endorser. I get all of my strings for free, sure, but I jumped on the opportunity, because of how much I like the product and the customer service. The strings are great, and so are the people at the company.
Also, I have an "artist price" (1/2 off) deal with Hipshot. I've been using Hipshot poducts since 1986. I was one of David Borisoff's very first customers. I bought my first de-tuner out of his garage in Van Nuys, CA. I got onto the endorsement roster, two years ago. I have LOVED their stuff for 20 years. Does the credibility of my opinion, somehow change now that I'm an endorser?
I received a Jazz bass from Fender, for free, about six or seven years ago. That's the only instrument they gave me, and I'm not on their roster. Does that count as an endorsement?
I purchased a G&L L200 in 1986. It's been my main instrument, since then (that's what I put the first de-tuner on). Last year I was offered an "artist price" endorsement (1/2 price). Although I haven't purchased a new one yet, I've played G&L for more than 20 years. Is my credibility somehow skewed now that I agreed to an "artist deal"?
Finally, I'd be happy to add all of this to my sig, but the option does not allow enough characters to include all of the info I would need to list, including my applicable web URLs.
I just want to make clear that Joshua's points above are hypothetical (per his IMO disclaimer ) - IF endorsing artists were considered commercial - and not his rulings as a moderator
) - IF endorsing artists were considered commercial - and not his rulings as a moderator
I see nothing but shades of gray.
It is hard to make rules, that are, for the most part,
unenforceable except for those who choose to comply.
And it seems those people aren't necessarily the problem.
Asking for a disclaimer would seem an adequate, if ineffective,
compromise.
It is hard to make rules, that are, for the most part,
unenforceable except for those who choose to comply.
And it seems those people aren't necessarily the problem.
Asking for a disclaimer would seem an adequate, if ineffective,
compromise.
Well Paul, right now there is one company that I would send a bill to for at least 6 pages of advertising. Maybe more. I get so nauseated about them I haven't counted them all.
Yeah, I bet I can take a WAG at this and get it right.
You get three choices and the first two don't count.
Let's leave specific companies out of this discussion please.
I agree with Joshua that how much you love a product cannot be considered when dealing with disclosures. Talk about a grey area
Regarding the disclosure statement:
I've figured out how to do add a disclosure to the profile, which when entered in via the 'edit profile' page, appears below the username, below the usertitle, in it's own area. This might be great for commercial users, as it'll free up their usertitle, and provide a means for even non-supporters to set their own disclaimer.
I can prefix the CUP disclosure with a bold "Commercial User:" text (so it'd read "Commercial User: John Doe Basses", for example. For users who "receive remuneration", I guess it's to specific if I prefix it with "Endorsing Artist:, as there are users who are not endorsing product but still get kickbacks... Maybe I should just leave it open, let the user how best to word their disclosure? Hmm. [sorry, thinking out loud]
I agree with Joshua that how much you love a product cannot be considered when dealing with disclosures. Talk about a grey area
Regarding the disclosure statement:
I've figured out how to do add a disclosure to the profile, which when entered in via the 'edit profile' page, appears below the username, below the usertitle, in it's own area. This might be great for commercial users, as it'll free up their usertitle, and provide a means for even non-supporters to set their own disclaimer.
I can prefix the CUP disclosure with a bold "Commercial User:" text (so it'd read "Commercial User: John Doe Basses", for example. For users who "receive remuneration", I guess it's to specific if I prefix it with "Endorsing Artist:, as there are users who are not endorsing product but still get kickbacks... Maybe I should just leave it open, let the user how best to word their disclosure? Hmm. [sorry, thinking out loud]
- Nov 3, 2004
- 485
- 71
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Hipshot Products, DR Strings and Accugroove Speaker Cabinets
I can agree with almost all of Joshua's responses to my post. I won't argue the other points, because it's really not worth it. I would not endorse a product I didn't love, so I am confident in my appraisals. I have no problem with disclosure, at all. I am not a salesman for these companies, I'd rather lead by example.
You haven't been part of the problem. I don't see you starting threads out for your company to review products you don't even use. That's whats got me going so bad.
If I want to buy a product you endorse, I would love to hear from you. You would have knowledge to share that would be appreciated. I would like to know you are an endorser so I could weigh that in my decision. There is stuff going on now that is far beyond the pale. 70 posts on a review from the same people over and over started by a guy who doesn't even use them. He was sent them over the weekend and is giving us a sales pitch. THATS my problem.
Paul I know you don't want to address a single company and this is pretty transparent, but he put this out there, the company is participating so if they get their fingers burned they started it.
