Talking Bass or SBL for reading music?

[gscroggin]

Not to diverge from your sources, but I'd just get a real book (or, if you're more into rock, a songbook for a band you like) and just start reading. It's slow at first but it's something that comes quicker than one may think.

Another option is the iReal Pro app. I use it on an iPad, but it runs on Android and Mac too, and they even have a tutorial on their website for how to run it with an emulator on Windows (Windows — iReal Pro). While I don't think it's a replacement for teaching theory if you're starting from scratch, it's an amazing practice tool. There are a variety of options for how the information is presented on the sheets, and you can choose between how it updates you with information in real time. I've been trying to re-learn modal soloing in a jazz improvisation context, and I'm having so much fun with iReal. It's like any other language...if you don't use it, you lose it. And in my case, I lost it a while ago

 

[WrapRough]

Another option is the iReal Pro app. I use it on an iPad, but it runs on Android and Mac too, and they even have a tutorial on their website for how to run it with an emulator on Windows (Windows — iReal Pro). While I don't think it's a replacement for teaching theory if you're starting from scratch, it's an amazing practice tool. There are a variety of options for how the information is presented on the sheets, and you can choose between how it updates you with information in real time. I've been trying to re-learn modal soloing in a jazz improvisation context, and I'm having so much fun with iReal. It's like any other language...if you don't use it, you lose it. And in my case, I lost it a while ago

Yeah man, iReal is an excellent app. I use it most days.

Another thing I am doing every day at the moment is generating random progressions and working an arpeggio over them along to a metronome. I use a random number generator app, numbers 1-7 with no duplicates, and it just spits out a progression. It's not musical, but it is massively helping me learn my keys and the chords in them.

 

[Snarf]

Greetings!
First post and happy to be here. Guitarist with the bug to bass and wanting to learn to read standard notation as part of the journey.

I do well with video learning and am looking at either talking bass or SBL for a structured reading course. The reading set at talking bass is almost as much as a year long subscription to SBL. Is it worth it?

Appreciate any insights especially from anyone who has compared this aspect of both learning platforms.

Simandl. Probably will cost you, what, $30?

 

[arepa_funk]

Fwiw, I've been getting more comfortable with sight reading by using this site regularly, about ten minutes a day:

Bass Clef Practice | Music Notation Training

in conjunction with a few Googled materials:
- Bass clef staff (lines & spaces)
- Circle of Fifths in bass clef
- Lead sheets and bass clef Real Book

Also bought a Sly & the Family Stone recorded versions book. Will likely pick up other books as my reading improves.

It can be slow at first as learning any language can be, but then notation begins looking like letters, bars look like words, sections look like sentences.

Learning the order of sharps and flats in order was hard for me at first, then became simple when picking up the bass. Using the inlay dots on the neck, go to the D string third fret (F), and do the same in the A and E strings. (That's F, C, G). Do the same in the fifth fret and seventh frets, this time the A and E strings only. (That's D, A, E, B.) There you go. That's the order of sharps. For the order of flats? Same thing, just backwards starting on B.

Some mental exercises have also helped using the Victor Wooten "theory is simple" methodology. e.g., how many sharps are there in E Major? (If you know the circle of fifths, this might be just memorization. If you don't, then go through the E Major scale, and see which sharps you hit.) F, C, G, D. For the Eb Major scale, all the sharps in the E Major scale are now naturals, and everything else is flat. How many flats is that? Three. The flatted notes were the naturals in the E natural major scale. Three + four = seven. So when you see three flats on sheet music, it's Eb Major, when you see four sharps it's E major (or their relative minors, i.e., sixth degree of their major scales.)

Anyways, this might be too much info, but it's definitely helped me to read faster, identify key signatures, determine chords within the key, look for borrowed chords or substitutions that don't fit the key, and above all, help to improvise. Hope this helps.

 

[iiipopes]

Along with the sight reading of the music comes the technique to get to the notes. I suggest if you are immersing yourself completely in going bass with the sight reading, that you also get a copy of either the Simandl or Rabbath methods of double bass playing to get your hands to do what they are supposed to on bass, because grabbing a bass neck like a guitar neck as a fence post will slow down your learning. I know. I started on guitar in 1975 and switched to bass in 1976 and in just that short amount of time had to unlearn bad habits.

 

[SteveCS]

Really, 8 hours of video lessons on reading?

I studied clarinet in elemtary school and organ in high school. In both cases, the staff was introduced, then the method books had pictures of proper fingering with corresponding notes shown on the staff. That was all in the first lesson, no more than an hour. All lessons after that were standard notation out of books. This is the sort of stuff that takes up the first dozen pages of any beginning bass method book.

The whole thing about reading is, um sitting down and reading. You can even read through a piece without your bass by just singing what's on the page. What the heck is being covered in those lessons?

I had the same thoughts.

 

[WrapRough]

I had the same thoughts.

It's like anything, it's padded out with stuff to make it seem like good value

 

[Quinn Roberts]

"just start reading". Come on dude.

Reading what? What notes are they? How long does each note last? What are those weird tie things? What are those weird things that don't look like notes? What does 4/4 mean? Why is there loads of # symbols?

You don't give a child a book and say "here, just start reading. you'll get there."

Thankfully we're not children here (presumably).

To each his own, I taught myself in a week or two using a "How To Play Bass" book and Wikipedia. Sure it took months before I could read fluently, but it's certainly not something that required anything other than a little bit of drive and some discipline.

 

[WrapRough]

Thankfully we're not children here (presumably).

To each his own, I taught myself in a week or two using a "How To Play Bass" book and Wikipedia. Sure it took months before I could read do it fluently, but it's certainly not something that required anything other than a little bit of drive and some discipline.

Sure. But not that's not the advice you gave:

"I'd just get a real book (or, if you're more into rock, a songbook for a band you like) and just start reading."

You obviously missed out the bit where you actually learnt to read first.

 

[iiipopes]

I have to follow up on the above posts that talk about the advantages of coming from a school or private lessons band instrument or keyboard background. Yes, this dog is about to get a little shaggy, but please bear with me.

I started with formal piano lessons in April, 1970, 8 years old. I then started trumpet in school band in 5th grade, and in April of 7th grade started guitar. That summer, I wanted to play in the jazz band section of summer band camp at the regional university when I was in junior high school, but knew all of the places would be taken by 8th graders, not 7th graders. So I waited. After the auditions, the director addressed the entire band camp and asked if there were any junior high age bass players. Knowing the rudiments of bass clef from piano lessons, I raised my hand. The conductor asked if I brought my bass. I replied no, that I was just a 7th grader, and thought an 8th grader would be chosen. The conductor said no, there weren't any, and could I bring my bass. I answered yes. Then at break I went to my band director who was helping with the band camp and asked to borrow the high school's bass and amp. (No, I did not actually own one) He said he didn't know I played bass. I grinned and said I didn't either. He said he understood and got me set up for the next day.

Here's where the sight reading comes in. I waited all morning for the concert band to break so the jazz band could rehearse. Finally the time came. Charts were passed out. I looked at the chart, and called to mind my previous lessons. OK, one flat. That means the song is in the key of F. First note, quarter note on the 4th line. That is an F. OK. Open D, 1st fret Eb, 2nd fret E, 3rd fret F. OK. Second note 4th space G. That is the open string. Next note: top line A. Open G, 1st fret G#, 2nd fret A. And so on for the rest of that chart and all the other charts. I just dug in and made it happen. By the end of the week with the concert for the parents and friends, I was kicking the band and have never looked back.

If you're going to go, go all in. This summer marks 45 years since that first summer in band camp, and I could waste the rest of the bandwidth with everything I have gotten to do because I dug in from the beginning with proper reading and technique, proper ear training to know what intervals and chord progressions sound like, proper study of the basic song forms in all genres to know what style to play as well as the notes, all the way from bedroom rocker to being on national TV PBS, tours in Mexico and Japan, jazz bands as well as pop/rock gigs, and all the other gigs and people I've gotten to play and meet along the way.

 

[bass12]

The best method I've come across for electric bass is Jeff Berlin's. Someone mentioned the Ron Velosky book. It's useful in that it provides reading material, but it doesn't even come close to being as methodical and well thought-out as Jeff Berlin's course.

 

[WrapRough]

The other thing here is that, regardless of which course, without a teacher you won't know how you're really doing

 

[singlemalt]

My kid started piano at 5. His piano teacher was surprised that he could read the words in the exercises. But kids are routinely taught to read music at early ages, even before they are reading language. Supple, eager brains.

Piano lessons, band programs in middle and high school, jazz band, brass instruments... every day, music, and all of it written in notation.
His brain has known how to do the reading thing for almost twenty years now. Kids that get all that time in, using the skill, start to take it for granted.

I wonder how many of the “just start reading” comments come from guys who can’t remember not being able to read. I know my kid shows no mercy at my lack of reading. On the other hand, “jam over this groove in G” leaves him adrift. So there. He’s also mystified by all the little lines on a tape measure....it doesn’t help when I tell him it’s like a bar of music. You gotta use it enough that it’s just in there.

Anyway, learning to read. Not just decipher and memorize, but reading at speed. It’s teaching the brain a new skill. The method and material matter.

Both Scott’s and Mark @ talkingbass have good courses. I use both.
The key, for me at least, is having tons of reading material that levels up gradually. And doesn’t have tab cluttering up the page!

A piece I haven’t heard or seen, to play with my drum machine or metronome. Sure, these are fairly simple. But the point is to read it, not memorize. I’m training my old brain to do a new trick.

If you are using Scott’s, check out the player’s path. Each piece, at each level can be practiced with the backing looper track, with or without bass, and the notation only sheet music, open in another screen tab. You can adjust tempo. Level one starts at super simple.

Lose your place? The looper will be around, or listen for the chord changes or end and jump back in. It’s like a video game. Kinda fun. Not sure you read it right? Turn on the bass and listen.

I bought a lifetime membership at Scott’s bass lessons long ago. It’s really built out into a huge resource. I think folks get turned off by the YouTube “freebies” segments. These are sale pitches. You get a taste, not the whole meal. There is plenty to keep you busy and learning, and tons of reading material. I’d like to everything presented in notation, or with an option to remove any tab. Working on reading, tab just clutters the page. Super irritating.

I like Talkingbass as well. Mark is more my style, and he is great at including written material. There’s plenty to keep you busy and learning on this site.

I’m not discounting the straight up book method, just it could be more fun. I’ve got plenty of books to practice reading, but many of them are above my current brain level. I’d be deciphering and memorizing, not reading. But step by step, I’ll get there.

It’s not easy, if you’ve been playing for decades, sitting down with the “Dick and Jane and Spot” level reading material. If it’s not fun, it’s tough.

I’m amazed that there’s not a “guitar hero” type video game for training sight reading.

 

[devnulljp]

I played with a little app called fretuoso on my ipad, and it's surprisingly good at getting you up to speed.
Then the Simandl book.
And getting thrown in the deep end with a theatre gig, where I had to read or GTFO.

 

[ShawnG]

My kid started piano at 5. His piano teacher was surprised that he could read the words in the exercises. But kids are routinely taught to read music at early ages, even before they are reading language. Supple, eager brains.

Piano lessons, band programs in middle and high school, jazz band, brass instruments... every day, music, and all of it written in notation.
His brain has known how to do the reading thing for almost twenty years now. Kids that get all that time in, using the skill, start to take it for granted.

I wonder how many of the “just start reading” comments come from guys who can’t remember not being able to read. I know my kid shows no mercy at my lack of reading. On the other hand, “jam over this groove in G” leaves him adrift. So there. He’s also mystified by all the little lines on a tape measure....it doesn’t help when I tell him it’s like a bar of music. You gotta use it enough that it’s just in there.

Anyway, learning to read. Not just decipher and memorize, but reading at speed. It’s teaching the brain a new skill. The method and material matter.

Both Scott’s and Mark @ talkingbass have good courses. I use both.
The key, for me at least, is having tons of reading material that levels up gradually. And doesn’t have tab cluttering up the page!

A piece I haven’t heard or seen, to play with my drum machine or metronome. Sure, these are fairly simple. But the point is to read it, not memorize. I’m training my old brain to do a new trick.

If you are using Scott’s, check out the player’s path. Each piece, at each level can be practiced with the backing looper track, with or without bass, and the notation only sheet music, open in another screen tab. You can adjust tempo. Level one starts at super simple.

Lose your place? The looper will be around, or listen for the chord changes or end and jump back in. It’s like a video game. Kinda fun. Not sure you read it right? Turn on the bass and listen.

I bought a lifetime membership at Scott’s bass lessons long ago. It’s really built out into a huge resource. I think folks get turned off by the YouTube “freebies” segments. These are sale pitches. You get a taste, not the whole meal. There is plenty to keep you busy and learning, and tons of reading material. I’d like to everything presented in notation, or with an option to remove any tab. Working on reading, tab just clutters the page. Super irritating.

I like Talkingbass as well. Mark is more my style, and he is great at including written material. There’s plenty to keep you busy and learning on this site.

I’m not discounting the straight up book method, just it could be more fun. I’ve got plenty of books to practice reading, but many of them are above my current brain level. I’d be deciphering and memorizing, not reading. But step by step, I’ll get there.

It’s not easy, if you’ve been playing for decades, sitting down with the “Dick and Jane and Spot” level reading material. If it’s not fun, it’s tough.

I’m amazed that there’s not a “guitar hero” type video game for training sight reading.

I’m using Mark’s lessons and enjoying Player’s Path.
Any suggestions as to where to find “tons of reading material that levels up gradually?” That’s what I need. Trombone books sounds like a good suggestion. Where are you finding all your material?
THX!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Sure. But not that's not the advice you gave:

"I'd just get a real book (or, if you're more into rock, a songbook for a band you like) and just start reading."

You obviously missed out the bit where you actually learnt to read first.

Which is something I would have changed if I could go back in time.

The only difference between the how to book (Ed Friedland in my case) and the real book is cost and interest. Both are full notation (no tabs). The Friedland book had a page that showed the notes on the clef and showed different rhythmic notation (all of which, as stated, can be found on Wikipedia for free). Also, a real book (or songbook) can be easily found online and is more engaging than the generic basslines they tend to give you in the how to books I've come across.

This is just my two cents though, anyone is welcome to take a penny or leave 'em.

 

[singlemalt]

It took me a bit to figure out Scott's Players Path. Each level has eight pieces. They make you choose three and that unlocks the practice tools for the pieces you choose. Or you can preview each piece and see the music scroll by.

I pick the three randomly, and only open the notation sheet music and the looper, without bass, then try to read the piece cold with my Beat Buddy set at tempo. Then I throw in the looper (without bass), cause its just more fun to have a band. A few laps with the looper and I'll start to rely more on memory than reading, so it's on to the next. I want to train my brain to follow the page and not drift off.

Once I've can read it, I move on. Once you have completed the level and taken the test, All the pieces in each completed level are activated for the practice and reading material. So there's eight pieces at about the same level in each level. I go back and work all of the eight at each level.

Phil's sight reading course has tons of exercises as well. The really basic stuff is deadly, but I see what he's doing and it's working for me. I'm not in a rush and enjoying the process and progress. I'm kinda excited to grab my coffee and get playing these days.

Any method book in bass clef would work. Anything without tab. I do like to have materials that include audio so I can check my accuracy. I can clip a strip of cardboard over the tab line to remove the distraction. Horn books often have exercises that actually sound like music, but not audio.

Since these pieces are simple and unadorned, it can be fun to add ghosts notes and bit more flair, and write out how that would look in the measure.

 

[ShawnG]

It took me a bit to figure out Scott's Players Path. Each level has eight pieces. They make you choose three and that unlocks the practice tools for the pieces you choose. Or you can preview each piece and see the music scroll by.

I pick the three randomly, and only open the notation sheet music and the looper, without bass, then try to read the piece cold with my Beat Buddy set at tempo. Then I throw in the looper (without bass), cause its just more fun to have a band. A few laps with the looper and I'll start to rely more on memory than reading, so it's on to the next. I want to train my brain to follow the page and not drift off.

Once I've can read it, I move on. Once you have completed the level and taken the test, All the pieces in each completed level are activated for the practice and reading material. So there's eight pieces at about the same level in each level. I go back and work all of the eight at each level.

Phil's sight reading course has tons of exercises as well. The really basic stuff is deadly, but I see what he's doing and it's working for me. I'm not in a rush and enjoying the process and progress. I'm kinda excited to grab my coffee and get playing these days.

Any method book in bass clef would work. Anything without tab. I do like to have materials that include audio so I can check my accuracy. I can clip a strip of cardboard over the tab line to remove the distraction. Horn books often have exercises that actually sound like music, but not audio.

Since these pieces are simple and unadorned, it can be fun to add ghosts notes and bit more flair, and write out how that would look in the measure.

I just finished PP Level II, so went back printed all of Level I (should be pretty easy for me, I just finished Section I, Level I of Mark's course) and all of Level II songs as well, no TAB. Have picked 3 Level III pieces and intro of accidentals in those pieces will track well with Section II, Level I of Mark's course.
Also, picked up 2 Hal Leonard trombone books, 101 songs each, Popular and Jazz. That will hold me for a while!
Thanks, all for the suggestions/info!
SPG

 

[Jazzpunk]

This may be another topic altogether but found it interesting that Jeff Berlin advocates not using a metronome. Never heard that one before.

 

[WrapRough]

This may be another topic altogether but found it interesting that Jeff Berlin advocates not using a metronome. Never heard that one before.

I see his point. You can certainly become dependent on it. I personally do use a metronome, but I only now use the 2 and 4, which I think gives enough space that your timing develops.

It's like anything - use the tools but dont rely on them!