Tapered strings and inharmonicity

[mngnt]

When I got my F-bass it came with their custom version of Labella Supersteps. While I loved the tone, I noticed a "warbling" sound when I played further up the neck. I figured it was due to this string design, and eventually switched to a standard string. Some googling at the time found others with similar issues, but not many.

I've more recently put a set of Supersteps on a P bass shortly before lending it to a friend. Upon its return, I've again found that this "warbling", especially on the low E above the 12th fret, is just awful.

A quick search today found that someone has done a very extensive study! I learned that this warbling is called inharmonicity, and it is certainly due to the difference in string mass near the bridge:

On inharmonicity in bass guitar strings with application to tapered and lumped constructions - SN Applied Sciences

The relevant summary:

The experimental data show that, as expected, the inharmonicity is greater for a given resonant mode number for shorter sounding lengths (i.e. at higher frets). For open strings, the inharmonicity is not very significant for the first ten modes. It is clear that the “tapered” string (that has lowered mass near the bridge) has raised inharmonicity in comparison with the standard construction string in all cases

Inharmonicity in general seems like a universally bad thing by definition. My questions are:

Why do only some people seem to notice?
What are the advantages of this string design that make the introduction of this inharmonicity trait worthwhile?

 

[michael_t]

What are the advantages of this string design that make the introduction of this inharmonicity trait worthwhile?

I would only use a tapered string for the low B on my 5-string. It actually provides better clarity and definition with even sustain when playing below the 12th fret by letting the string vibrate more freely without too much restriction at the saddle. I hardly go above the 9th fret on the low B.

That said, my experience tells me tapered strings don't always work well depending on the bass and the bridge design. I once tried a tapered B on an Ibanez with a monorail style bridge and it was awful as the tapered part ended up extending too far beyond the saddle.

 

[iiipopes]

Why do only some people seem to notice?
What are the advantages of this string design that make the introduction of this inharmonicity trait worthwhile?

1) Just like any group of people, they either don't notice it, or have become so used to that sharp articulation they don't bother with it.
2) Tuning. Tuning. Tuning. The sharp articulation can induce a raspiness that makes the foundation to the rest of the band edgy. It does work. I experimented with a small strip of golfer's lead tape wrapped around the strings at the point Dr. Kemp has his lump. It really did work, when tracking the results on a really accurate digital tuner. The electronic "needle" did not automatically jump sharp before settling in to the pitch. I told Dr. Kemp about my experiment, and he complimented me on my thinking outside the box to confirm his data.

 

[trothwell]

I heard this too, on the exposed-core E string of the old GHS Progressives. Around the 12th fret or so there started being some off-pitch overtones. I barely ever played the E string that high, but nevertheless, I am glad to see that the much-anticipated Progressives v2.0 will not have the exposed core E string (just on the B string now).

 

[michael_t]

String inharmonicity vs material

Physicists develop bass string theory

 

[michael_t]

I am glad to see that the much-anticipated Progressives v2.0 will not have the exposed core E string (just on the B string now).

According to the info that was prematurely leaked a while back, there is supposed to be an option for a non-tapered 128B with the new version.

 

[skycruiser]

You sure it's not just that the pickups are too close to the strings? An overly strong magnetic field can cause disturbance in the string vibration at the higher end, causing what is often described as a warbling sound. It also often drives the note flat.

 

[iiipopes]

You sure it's not just that the pickups are too close to the strings? An overly strong magnetic field can cause disturbance in the string vibration at the higher end, causing what is often described as a warbling sound. It also often drives the note flat.

Yes. Go read Dr. Kemp's research articles.

 

[matante]

I remember that the tapered Rotosound strings used to come with a small tool to cut the strings at the bridge end, on the theory that the exposed part of the string should be no longer than absolutely necessary. Since there is no standard measurement for the distance from ball end to saddle, it seems that any and all experimental results will depend on the exact bridge being used.

If the ideal is to have the tapered part over the saddle only and none of it as part of the speaking length, the only way to avoid the warble would be with strings custom made to your type of bridge, or strings that are customizable like the Rotos were.

 

[skycruiser]

Yes. Go read Dr. Kemp's research articles.

If P then Q
Q
Therefore P

That's your problem right there.

 

[J Wilson]

This is just depressing.

Man's inharmonicity to man is only surpassed by his cruelty to amplifiers.

 

[superheavyfunk]

I made a post about this a couple of months ago. I didn’t know what the problem was and described it as a “ring modular sound” coming from the strings on my short scale 5, especially the thickest ones. Turns out it was inharmonicity. I learned a lot that day. The strings were an old, discontinued set of tapered rounds from labella. Great feel for sure but the inharmonicity prevented me from enjoying them for some time.

I ordered a bunch of strings with differing construction types from Newtone to experiment with and am still waiting on their arrival. In the interim, I’ve continued using the labella’s and have noticed that as they’ve broken in, the problem has dimmed a bit. It’s not entirely gone but it’s not nearly as bad as it was, as long as I stay below the 9th on the B and the 12th on the E.

So I’d say, if you like the strings you’ve got, double check to make sure they’re not twisted and play the heck outta them for a while. Maybe they’ll get a bit better as they break in!

 

[iiipopes]

If P then Q
Q
Therefore P

That's your problem right there.

Problem? I don't think so, especially after not only reading Dr. Kemp's research and literature, but having a good dialog with him on another thread, so that I could talk about what I did so that I avoided the boolean fallacy you are trying to quote.

 

[skycruiser]

Problem? I don't think so, especially after not only reading Dr. Kemp's research and literature, but having a good dialog with him on another thread, so that I could talk about what I did so that I avoided the boolean fallacy you are trying to quote.

The Dr. Kemp stuff is not relevant to my question to the OP. There can be multiple causes for a symptom. My question was whether or not this very simple check was done to confirm that the warbling was not caused by pickups too close to strings. It has nothing to do with the nature of tapered strings and does not call into question or raise doubts about whatever other possible causes might be out there, including this research by Dr. Kemp.

 

[bigjames]

I have a fretless Fbass AC6 and swear by the Labella's that came with it. never noticed anything like the OP is describing, but I understand the science. Interesting.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I remember that the tapered Rotosound strings used to come with a small tool to cut the strings at the bridge end, on the theory that the exposed part of the string should be no longer than absolutely necessary. Since there is no standard measurement for the distance from ball end to saddle, it seems that any and all experimental results will depend on the exact bridge being used.

If the ideal is to have the tapered part over the saddle only and none of it as part of the speaking length, the only way to avoid the warble would be with strings custom made to your type of bridge, or strings that are customizable like the Rotos were.

Ah, the Roto "Piano String Design" 99s. The only strings that made me want to cause physical damage (preferrably to Rotosound's R&D department).

The idea may have been theoretically sound but the implemention was horrible! The procedure was extremely fiddly. If you didn't get the lenght right at the first attempt (which was less likely than winning the lottery) you were almost certain to break the core at the second attemp. The instructions said you could just try again if you didn't get it right the first time but in real life the core just broke. It didn't exactly help that Rotosound seem to use a slightly more brittle type of steel than many other brands. I never actually got to hear these strings. At least not a full set. After my first attempt to install them failed I purchased a second set, thinking I must be an idiot that couldn't get it right. Tried again, followed the instructions to the letter. Same result. At that point I was closer to thrashing my bass than ordering a third set.

I love Roto 55s, 66s and 77s. Long scale only though. Roto's short scale sets are totally useless IMO. They're so floppy they can't even hold a steady enough pitch to tune them. Let alone intonate them!

But the 99s... I didn't realize they were discontinued. Good riddance! I actually feel like celebrating! But I think I'll wait until they also get rid of those nasty short scale sets.

And then there's the 88 tapewounds. Has anyone ever manager to intonate these strings properly? I gave up, got Pyramid tapewounds instead and never looked back. Yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with Rotosound. The most inconsistent string manufacturer in the business!

 

[iiipopes]

The Dr. Kemp stuff is not relevant to my question to the OP. There can be multiple causes for a symptom. My question was whether or not this very simple check was done to confirm that the warbling was not caused by pickups too close to strings. It has nothing to do with the nature of tapered strings and does not call into question or raise doubts about whatever other possible causes might be out there, including this research by Dr. Kemp.

I did not comment on the warbling of the strings. I commented on the direction the thread went with the Dr. Kemp information.

 

[micguy]

I’ve gone looking for inharmonicity on my tapered strings - I studied the Physics of it in college, so I know where it comes from. I haven’t found it to be an issue, but I have tapered, but not exposed core strings - it should be worse on those. The livelier B (My E’s are normal) is a good thing.

 

[trothwell]

And then there's the 88 tapewounds. Has anyone ever manager to intonate these strings properly? I gave up, got Pyramid tapewounds instead and never looked back. Yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with Rotosound. The most inconsistent string manufacturer in the business!

Yes, at least once, I was able to get at least a couple of sets to intonate properly, and it sounded great. I've gone through several sets of the 88s, and when I get a good set, they sound excellent. But they also seem curiously prone to intonation problems. I don't know why. They are Rotosound 66 strings under the tape, right? I've never had any intonation problems with those at all, and have used them a lot more than the 88s.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Yes, at least once, I was able to get at least a couple of sets to intonate properly, and it sounded great. I've gone through several sets of the 88s, and when I get a good set, they sound excellent. But they also seem curiously prone to intonation problems. I don't know why. They are Rotosound 66 strings under the tape, right? I've never had any intonation problems with those at all, and have used them a lot more than the 88s.

Sorry, I have no idea if they're Roto 66s under the nylon wrapping. If I had to guess I would say yes... probably. But the gauges of the metal strings will obviously be much lighter than the listed gauges for the tapewound set.