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TARA Labs cable challenge!!

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Tim Cole said:
I have to ask, one test of mine came back inconclusive, the other 2 cables yielded absolutely no difference to me over my standard cables.

How would a double blind comparison change any of this?

My testing was simple, plug it in and see what it does for me.......no one else had it that easy :) Let's get everyones report before we start critisizing :)

There was no criticism, I'm simply saying that a claim of either "they work" or "they don't work" can't be made based on an A/B comparison using human subjects in any arrangement except for a double blind test, EVEN if the result of the A/B comparison was that you heard no difference :)

The reason is not that you're a bad tester or anything, it's that a cable company would immediately throw out the results because they could claim that the testers had a bias. Now I know what you're thinking "well I'm not biased" :), which is how I feel too, but still if we want to be able to make claims about a product that both the manufacturer and the potential consumer of a cable will both have to take seriously, we have to completely eliminate the possibility of bias in the testing. Not because the testers are not trustworthy, but because human testing without a blind case will be immediately refuted by the other side.
 
john turner said:
while this would be completely valid in the case of a consumer reports test, please note that i did conduct testing that, while not double blind, would be considered blind in the sense that both the live gigs and the rehearsals and also the music store appearances, nobody knew the point of the test. in fact, i was trying to get them to notice differences in certain "eq settings" where i faked the eq being changed, but didn't do anything, as i changed the cables, using a bogus excuse of "the cable doesn't seem tight, let me re-connect it" in the case of non musicians, and similar ridiculous things with my guitarists. this was at the music stores, at gigs, i complained of faulty cabling, and made sure the sound guy listened carefully to what was going on.

All that stuff is suggestion, and while it may be personally satisfying (in the sense that you felt sure of your results afterward), someone who disagrees with you about your results will jump all over that, they'll point out how your tone of voice might have changed subtly when you switched cables, or that a subject might have been onto you trying to fool them and intentionally skewed your results. Don't take any of this personally, I don't know your friends and neither will the people who are likely to criticize your results.

i had nothing to gain by lying about the results, to be honest - i can afford $33k in custom basses, i can afford expensive cables if they make a difference. i wanted to believe that these would - i would like nothing more than to add some sweet functional bling to my rig, but like i said, with the exception of the instrument cables, i could tell no difference, and neither could the sound guys, guitarists and non musicians that heard them at gigs, practice and in music stores.

Nobodys calling you a liar. In a drug study, nobody who gets a headache from a placebo is called a liar either, nor is anybody who doesn't report a change from the real drug sample. But somebody who bristles and starts equivocating his sincerity in a test case with the amount of money he's spent on instruments is going to raise the hackles of both parties with an interest in the results of a cable listening test :)
 
How long did it take someone to scope the cables? A half an hour?

How long would it have taken someone to run the double blind experiment? An hour? Two?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but each of the above only needed to be done once, and the remaining testers were to give their "human responses" while simply listening with their ears.

ANY testing situation can have flaws. We're not looking for the cure for cancer. As someone else already stated, at these prices, the cables better coil themselves up at the end of the gig and put themselves back in my cable bag.
 
Jazzbassman said:
How long would it have taken someone to run the double blind experiment? An hour? Two?

The problem with doing the double blind test that will satisfy most people is that it is not easy to run. To do a proper ABX comparison, you have to be able to switch two samples close to instantly. In the case of a cable shootout, that means allowing the test subject to either push a button or give a command that says "swap the samples", and it has to happen in a way such that neither the subject or the person administering the test doesn't know which sample is being played.

For an instrument cable, players are absolutely going to want to be able to conduct the test themselves, just like if you were testing pickups or something. Also, theyre going to want to test with their own instrument, and likely their own amp; that's how I'd want to do it too. But it would suck to have to be, say, blindfolded, and have some lackey who doesn't know one cable from the other one swapping them out every time you yell at him. The switch has to be pretty much instant for any kind of perception test, just think if you had to figure out if two color swatches matched by looking at one, then putting it into your pocket, waiting 10 seconds, and then taking out the other one. It's a ridiculous scenario and testing these instrument cables by playing one, then putting it away and playing the other one, are just as ineffective.

I made a post a while back (unfortunately I believe it was in a thread that was summarily deleted with no warning) that described a device that one could build for ABXing instrument cables. Essentially it was a pair of simple reed relay switches that would go at the input and output jacks of the instrument and amp, respectively, with a control wire attached to a PC that could randomly select a cable and would record the response of the listener.

It may not seem like such a big deal that one would need to go to all the trouble of building such a device, but we're talking about real money here. If company A comes along and says "our cables are better", and a couple of name guys agree without doing any kind of objective testing, then company B and/or the poor schmoes who buy cable A are going to be bearing the financial burden of company A's failure to make accurate claims. Frankly, it should start to set of alarm bells in your head any time the very first piece of information that a cable company gives you is not the results of a double blind study to determine the efficacy of their product. It is the burden of the claimant to provide the proof.
 
unregistered said:
The problem with doing the double blind test that will satisfy most people is that it is not easy to run. To do a proper ABX comparison, you have to be able to switch two samples close to instantly. In the case of a cable shootout, that means allowing the test subject to either push a button or give a command that says "swap the samples", and it has to happen in a way such that neither the subject or the person administering the test doesn't know which sample is being played.

For an instrument cable, players are absolutely going to want to be able to conduct the test themselves, just like if you were testing pickups or something. Also, theyre going to want to test with their own instrument, and likely their own amp; that's how I'd want to do it too. But it would suck to have to be, say, blindfolded, and have some lackey who doesn't know one cable from the other one swapping them out every time you yell at him. The switch has to be pretty much instant for any kind of perception test, just think if you had to figure out if two color swatches matched by looking at one, then putting it into your pocket, waiting 10 seconds, and then taking out the other one. It's a ridiculous scenario and testing these instrument cables by playing one, then putting it away and playing the other one, are just as ineffective.

I made a post a while back (unfortunately I believe it was in a thread that was summarily deleted with no warning) that described a device that one could build for ABXing instrument cables. Essentially it was a pair of simple reed relay switches that would go at the input and output jacks of the instrument and amp, respectively, with a control wire attached to a PC that could randomly select a cable and would record the response of the listener.

It may not seem like such a big deal that one would need to go to all the trouble of building such a device, but we're talking about real money here. If company A comes along and says "our cables are better", and a couple of name guys agree without doing any kind of objective testing, then company B and/or the poor schmoes who buy cable A are going to be bearing the financial burden of company A's failure to make accurate claims. Frankly, it should start to set of alarm bells in your head any time the very first piece of information that a cable company gives you is not the results of a double blind study to determine the efficacy of their product. It is the burden of the claimant to provide the proof.
As I have stated before, not all testers did theirs the same. Vanselus did some great double blind testing, along with some recordings as well.
 
My test was fairly short. Tim brought the cables to a music store where I was moonlighting at the time. I tried the power cable, speaker cable, and instrument cable. I used Tim's ex-MTD 535, and a standard MIM Jazz bass, both run through a Trace Elliot combo with the 12 band eq and 4-10s.

I did not notice any difference at all between the Tara labs cables and the cheap music store cables. I probably don't have the greatest ear in the world, but thats what I heard.

The stuff is extremely overengineered, and as Tim said, would probably survive a nuclear attack, but for my money, there is no way I would take these over a reasonably priced, custom made to my specs, Pete Brunelli cable.

These very well may have a legitimate use in the studio. I see no advantage to using them live.
 
I'll zoom in with my $.02.

I could not give a rat's patooty what a scope registers. Don't give me graphs, or frequency response ranges, gigahertz megahertz, killahertz...oy my head hertz.

Only one thing matters. What I can hear .

I was one of the cats who wanted to keep an open mind, hoping that these cables really could make a dramatic difference as has been claimed by some. I recall one description being "it's like having a blanket over your speaker cab and then taking the blanket off."

I respect JT, Tim and Gard, and I'd bet their ears are no better or worse than mine. They tested these cables much more thoroughly than I would have myself. I would have just plugged my bass into my rig with my existing cables, then switched to the TARAs. Scientific? No. But if I can't hear a difference, then there is no difference.
 
Posted by Gard
"Bottom line: Spend your money wisely. You'll get more return on your dollars in improved tone by taking a few lessons from your local pro and spending some extra hours practicing than you EVER will from these insanely expensive cables. Fer cripes sake, how in the world can a POWER CABLE change your tone? The power comes from the freakin' wall, if it is going to affect your tone, it will do so before it ever reaches that damn cable!!!!"


[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Sound advice O Wise One from the (south)East. ;)
 
unregistered said:
...I made a post a while back (unfortunately I believe it was in a thread that was summarily deleted with no warning) that described a device that one could build for ABXing instrument cables. Essentially it was a pair of simple reed relay switches that would go at the input and output jacks of the instrument and amp, respectively, with a control wire attached to a PC that could randomly select a cable and would record the response of the listener....
I've read tests of cables that were done using such a device. These tests showed that nobody could hear a difference. Of courses, the cable fanatics dismiss these tests, claiming that the switching devices were somehow ruining their expensive cables, or some such drivel. Can't have a switch in the circuit path, you know.... :p
 
unregistered said:
All that stuff is suggestion, and while it may be personally satisfying (in the sense that you felt sure of your results afterward), someone who disagrees with you about your results will jump all over that, they'll point out how your tone of voice might have changed subtly when you switched cables, or that a subject might have been onto you trying to fool them and intentionally skewed your results. Don't take any of this personally, I don't know your friends and neither will the people who are likely to criticize your results.

frankly, someone who disagrees with my results can kiss my butt, to put it bluntly. i put my money where my mouth is with everything in my rig - i have over $40k's worth of custom bass guitars and top of the line rig. i can afford to spend $1k on cables if i felt that they made a positive difference however slight. the fact that i'm not buying these cables, except possibly one of the instrument cables for recording, speaks volumes as to the results of my testing. i didn't set out to prove these wrong, or right, although my electrical engineering degree from georgia tech told me what to expect, and those expectations were borne out.

i'm not criticising you either, but the purpose here is to have a tool that makes a difference and earns its keep. everything in my rig is noticeable, even to the uninitiated. if the differences were not astounding, don't blame the listeners, or the testing method.

Nobodys calling you a liar. In a drug study, nobody who gets a headache from a placebo is called a liar either, nor is anybody who doesn't report a change from the real drug sample. But somebody who bristles and starts equivocating his sincerity in a test case with the amount of money he's spent on instruments is going to raise the hackles of both parties with an interest in the results of a cable listening test :)

i have yet to bristle, although your suggestions are starting to aggravate. furthermore, the only hackles i seem to be raising are yours due to your perception of the inadequacy of my testing method. i wonder if i came out proclaiming the obvious improvement in my tone would i be subject to such scrutiny?

i brought up how much money i have in my rig to illustrate that i am willing to pay for something that proves it's worth, and i am willing and able to listen for something to show it's worth. these cables, with the exception of the instrument cables, did not do that, and even the instrument cables didn't have that much of a difference to warrant a huge price difference. if i can't hear it, and the soundmen can't hear it, and my band mates can't hear it, and the un-initiated music listeners at the music stores and gigs can't hear it, what exactly is the point?

the fact of the matter is that i can hear subtle differences in my sound - i've been running a recording studio for over 10 years, logged probably over 5k hours if not more tracking and engineering, so i can tell by my own ear how something is going to sound or not sound, especially when it comes to my rig.

if that's not good enough for you or anyone else, tough, but the fact that i'm not even the slightest bit interested in purchasing these power cables after i tested them out, when i have enough cash sitting in a box next to my computer to buy 10 of them, speaks volumes.

i mean, come on. your whole proscribed testing method is ridiculous. nobody puts that kind of effort into purchasing music gear, because practically nobody listens to music with that kind of scrutiny. shoot, i find cds unlistenable due to slight distortions all the time - most early zepplin stuff in fact - and yet i still don't try to ruin the musical experience by trying to analyze that closely. the simple fact is if it takes that much scrutiny to even come close to telling a difference then there's no way that these cables are worth it, and i guarantee that none of the name players who have them would play through them if they had to pay for them.

the fact of the matter is guys are going to say "these cables are great" if they get them for free. simple marketing. nothing music related should require double blind testing to prove itself - i can prove to you with one note how my basses are better than basses that cost 1/10th the price, through any amp, through any speaker, through any cable. if these cables can't do the same, they're worthless.
 
YYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH! :D


Just curious unharmed, were you one of the ones singing the praises before the results started coming out?

I still fail to see how a double blinded test could have any bearing on my personal results. KNOWING I was supposed to be hearing something should in fact influence me to think I heard something different, which I did not. Only way the mental aspect would have changed anything in the testing process, is if I were sucker enough to think I heard something, which I did not.

Honestly, I REALLY DID want to hear some amazing improvements, it just wasn't there.

Like or dislike John, Gard, Pat, and I's testing method, we did it the same way the general gear buying public does it, with our own EARS and our own MINDS. If someone has to convince me I MIGHT be hearing something, I aint buying it. For me, it would have to be a drastic improvement to justify it, not just one I am told I am supposed to hear, and have childlike psychology and salesmanship making me feel like I am a moron if I don't claim to hear it.
 
Hey JT, where exactly is that computer...you know... the one near the box of cash...in GPS terms... ;)


You guys have settled it for me, thanks everyone for taking the time to do this. I am curious to see what tools Bob will throw at it, but your tests have been valid in my book. I will stick with my local guy's cable and switchcraft jacks. My power cables will continue to be cannabalized from the server room at work.
 
You guys have both got me wrong.

Frankly, I think that the cables in question, and for that matter essentially every piece of "audiophile" wire ever peddled, is a load of crap. I think the cottage industry surrounding the cables is run either by delusional idiots or criminals, and I can't think of a single more ancient technology that has as little room for improvement as audio cable.

I am delighted with both your and JT's results because you are both obviously sincere people who were unmoved by the make-believe claims that people make about these conduits of snake oil. My complaint or lament, as it were, is that despite all the trouble you went to, ad hoc personal test results like these cannot be used as ammunition to flat out discredit the companies who peddle this stuff, which is precisely what my heart longs for. Nothing would make me happier than to make it impossible for people duping musicians to earn a living doing it, but without a double blind test, all the snake oil men have got to do to discredit your results is find a couple of people who say "oh yeah, I hear it!". So I'm not criticizing your conclusions Tim, just whining that I wouldn't be able to use them as definitive proof that the cables don't do anything.

Just like sleight of hand magic works by capitalizing on weird quirks in human perception, the audio cable ripoff trick works by exploiting a weakness in human hearing- it's interface with short term memory and the way aural perception fits into cognition. I swear, I'm not making this up, and yes its complicated but it really does matter when you are talking about using human subjects to detect small changes in audio signals. Bear with me.

Psychiatrists and scientists who study cognition have learned that any time you are doing an experiment to determine the threshhold of perception in a person (i.e. how sensitive the eyes/ears/nose are to changes) it is impossible to obtain accurate results if there is any transmission of information between the subject and the administrator of the test (in this case its you, since you were switching cables yourself). Daniel Dennett refers to this as the <i>heterophenomenological experience</i>, which is just a fancy way of saying that my brain perceives differently when someone else tells me or shows me something, or when I am aware of some piece of information that might affect how I perceive things. That's suggestion.

In both your cases, you went into the test feeling pretty objective. You knew the differences, if any, were probably going to be very slight, and you were listening hard, and you had decided not to make up your mind ahead of time. That's perfect. One of you heard a difference with the instrument cable and one didn't. Thats ambiguous but its ok, we'll have more results and we can use our stats knowledge to sort out an answer once we have more samples. The problem is that once we have those results, we have to be prepared to respond to complaints that somehow suggestion was used to guide responses. The cable company could claim that the color of their cable set off testers, or any number of other things. Or they could claim that the period of time taken to swap cables was so long that it was hard for the tester to listen really closely. Unfortunately, they'd have a point, because dumb subtle things like the appearance of the cable can and really do cause variations in big tests.

So anyway, my only gripe was that double blind testing is not just some extra thing you'd do in addition to ad hoc testing, it's the ONLY way you can do a test like this and have the results be valid enough that you could actually win an argument with the people who disagree with you, or conversely, its the only way that a intelligent person can know that they were mistaken about something they thought they heard. So say it turns out I'm wrong and the cables work as promised, I want to know for certain, and I need to test to be clean for that.

The rest of this doesn't apply to Tim or John:
I have done these kinds of ABX tests before and I have learned the hard, embarassing way that if you have knowledge of a change in the test setup, a different cable or power amp or whatever, you can no longer trust your own perception of sound. A lot of musicians are kind of religious about their own ears and they are certain that they'll simply be able to hear these things or not hear them, but they forget or don't understand that their brains are there trying to give them every possible advantage in what to the subconscious seems like a contest, and you will honest-to-god hear things that are not there if the brain can correlate a sound with some kind of switch. It makes you more, not less credible, if you don't completely trust your own ears.

I recommend http://www.pcabx.com/getting_started.htm for an example of how hard some of this stuff can be to hear. A lot of people would assume that they could hear, for example, 1% thd in a signal, but give it a few whirls in PCABX :)
 
unregistered said:
You guys have both got me wrong.

Frankly, I think that the cables in question, and for that matter essentially every piece of "audiophile" wire ever peddled, is a load of crap. I think the cottage industry surrounding the cables is run either by delusional idiots or criminals, and I can't think of a single more ancient technology that has as little room for improvement as audio cable.

I am delighted with both your and JT's results because you are both obviously sincere people who were unmoved by the make-believe claims that people make about these conduits of snake oil. My complaint or lament, as it were, is that despite all the trouble you went to, ad hoc personal test results like these cannot be used as ammunition to flat out discredit the companies who peddle this stuff, which is precisely what my heart longs for. Nothing would make me happier than to make it impossible for people duping musicians to earn a living doing it, but without a double blind test, all the snake oil men have got to do to discredit your results is find a couple of people who say "oh yeah, I hear it!". So I'm not criticizing your conclusions Tim, just whining that I wouldn't be able to use them as definitive proof that the cables don't do anything.

Just like sleight of hand magic works by capitalizing on weird quirks in human perception, the audio cable ripoff trick works by exploiting a weakness in human hearing- it's interface with short term memory and the way aural perception fits into cognition. I swear, I'm not making this up, and yes its complicated but it really does matter when you are talking about using human subjects to detect small changes in audio signals. Bear with me.

Psychiatrists and scientists who study cognition have learned that any time you are doing an experiment to determine the threshhold of perception in a person (i.e. how sensitive the eyes/ears/nose are to changes) it is impossible to obtain accurate results if there is any transmission of information between the subject and the administrator of the test (in this case its you, since you were switching cables yourself). Daniel Dennett refers to this as the heterophenomenological experience, which is just a fancy way of saying that my brain perceives differently when someone else tells me or shows me something, or when I am aware of some piece of information that might affect how I perceive things. That's suggestion.

In both your cases, you went into the test feeling pretty objective. You knew the differences, if any, were probably going to be very slight, and you were listening hard, and you had decided not to make up your mind ahead of time. That's perfect. One of you heard a difference with the instrument cable and one didn't. Thats ambiguous but its ok, we'll have more results and we can use our stats knowledge to sort out an answer once we have more samples. The problem is that once we have those results, we have to be prepared to respond to complaints that somehow suggestion was used to guide responses. The cable company could claim that the color of their cable set off testers, or any number of other things. Or they could claim that the period of time taken to swap cables was so long that it was hard for the tester to listen really closely. Unfortunately, they'd have a point, because dumb subtle things like the appearance of the cable can and really do cause variations in big tests.

So anyway, my only gripe was that double blind testing is not just some extra thing you'd do in addition to ad hoc testing, it's the ONLY way you can do a test like this and have the results be valid enough that you could actually win an argument with the people who disagree with you, or conversely, its the only way that a intelligent person can know that they were mistaken about something they thought they heard. So say it turns out I'm wrong and the cables work as promised, I want to know for certain, and I need to test to be clean for that.

The rest of this doesn't apply to Tim or John:
I have done these kinds of ABX tests before and I have learned the hard, embarassing way that if you have knowledge of a change in the test setup, a different cable or power amp or whatever, you can no longer trust your own perception of sound. A lot of musicians are kind of religious about their own ears and they are certain that they'll simply be able to hear these things or not hear them, but they forget or don't understand that their brains are there trying to give them every possible advantage in what to the subconscious seems like a contest, and you will honest-to-god hear things that are not there if the brain can correlate a sound with some kind of switch. It makes you more, not less credible, if you don't completely trust your own ears.

I recommend http://www.pcabx.com/getting_started.htm for an example of how hard some of this stuff can be to hear. A lot of people would assume that they could hear, for example, 1% thd in a signal, but give it a few whirls in PCABX :)
I too thought the (power cable) claims were a bunch of "hoowey", and seem to be, but this man still makes a lot of sense.
At no time, in his previous posts, did he advocate the cables.
He simply stated, correctly, that (except for jt's scope) the testing methods used would not be admissable as conclusive.
Let's not be so thin skinned gentlemen.
 
unregistered said:
You guys have both got me wrong.

(snip)

ah, i understand where you're coming from now - sorry for the assumptions on my part :). to be honest i don't think it would take that extreme a reaction to put the kibosh on this kind of stuff. seriously, enough folks say that they dont' make any appreciable difference in the quantities that matter, and nobody will buy them.
 
john turner said:
ah, i understand where you're coming from now - sorry for the assumptions on my part :). to be honest i don't think it would take that extreme a reaction to put the kibosh on this kind of stuff. seriously, enough folks say that they dont' make any appreciable difference in the quantities that matter, and nobody will buy them.
ditto
 
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