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TARA Labs cable challenge!!

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john turner said:
seriously, enough folks say that they dont' make any appreciable difference in the quantities that matter, and nobody will buy them.

I dunno, there are a lot of people with too much cash and not enough sense. One endorsement from Nathan East will probably outweigh this entire thread in terms of sales. Also, it's not like the cables don't work, they all pass electricity, and everybody knows the best Xs are the most expensive Xs, and who wants less than the best for their studio? :rolleyes: And Tara isn't even the most expensive!!! I think I need to buy stock in these companies . . . :hyper:

Unregistered, I got you all along but thanks for the clear post explaining standards of proof in audio perception. I'll have to play w/ that abx site when I finish talking with my broker. :)
 
I'll get to posting the sound clips I recorded with all the TARA cables soon. I'll let you know when they're up.

Here's my "as blind as you can get with 2 people and no ABX thingie" test results:

First, Josh (funkyj) and I listened to a clip of music - the first 15 seconds of "Funky Boss" from the Beastie Boys "Check your head" album. This clip is quite open, has some percussion, and things in the background you don't notice in your car. You know the type - and the kicker is that we're both VERY familiar with this song. And it was handy. nuff said.

We took turns taking 2 runs of 10 double-listens to the clip with back turned, in which the other person would randomly swap the cables. The gear was: Tara or generic cable -- Avalon U5 -- cd player -- grado Sr80's. The swapper didn't even have a schedule of swaps, and the listener would cover up any swapping sounds by saying "la la la la la". Heh. Hokey but it worked. I have all the results detailed out if anyone is interested, but essentially, we listened to each clip twice, and tried to hear if there was a difference between the two. Just yes or no. Heard a difference or didn't hear a difference.

Josh correctly identified "diff or no diff" twice out of 10. I got 7/10. Then just for kicks, we did a coin toss (guess heads or tails). Josh did better at 2/5 while I still ruled at 3/4. I actually did better at the coin toss than hearing a sonic "signature" of a power cable. Not exactly "taking a blanket" off my headphones. The only thing that I possibly thought I heard when getting the 7/10, was that I kept hearing more "openness" in one than the other. I started trying to guess which was which, but there was absolutely no consistency in my answers.

We repeated some of the testing (undocumented) by taking turns playing bass through headphones and through our various amps, and neither of us could tell a speck of difference when swapping power cables. The Avalon U5 when unplugged, keeps going for a split second, so we could even swap cables while the sound kept going, and even not knowing when the swap took place.... I couldn't tell when the swap took place.

One thing of note though - I DID use the Tara "The One" cable on a gig, and the darn thing was so heavy, that it actually pulled itself OUT of my amp during a song! It boggles my mind how a $1200 power cable has connectors that look identical to the ones on the generic cable! You'd think they'd come up with something fancy. On the other hand, the connectors on my Evidence Audio "The Source" cable are stamped with "hospital grade" on them, are very beefy, and fit more snugly and securely than any generic cable. No definite sound difference that I can put my finger on, but damned if I like the feel of the cable and snugneses of the connections enough to justify the cost.

Like JT, I definitely could hear a difference in the audio cable. Those clips will be coming soon too. Summary:
generic: plain
monster bass: harsh highs, muddy bass
evidence: tight round bass, smooth highs, clearer overall
tara: tightER bass, smoothER highs, clearER than the evidence

The crappy thing is that I really want to believe Bob Lee in that there should be no difference at all. But I still hear it. So either it's there, or the marketing/packaging/suggestion is biasing my opinions. Ya'll know my passion for bass gear :)

In summary, there's no way in HELL i'd buy a Tara power cable for my bass rig. I couldn't hear any discernable difference in any of the tests, and I can't help but question people who tell stories like the famous "where did my tone go?" story earlier in this thread. I can definitely hear a difference in instrument cables, enough where I don't prefer a generic cable, but not enough where i'd personally spend Tara money on one either. I'm just as happy using Bayou cables, which are excellently made. If you're looking botique and Tara's out of the range I would highly suggest looking at Evidence Audio - great prices, good stuff.

But as JT said, if you're looking for power cables to make a dramatic difference in tone, I'm just not buying it. Even the difference the instrument cables make is slight. I'd suggest the purchase of these high-end cables only if you're happy with all your other gear and just like to have really nice accessories. Otherwise you're much better off buying well-made custom cables for 1/10th the price.

Thanks for letting me participate - it was a blast telling my bandmates that I was using a $1200 power cable - and it was a very fun and enlightening experiment.

(and sorry for the long post. i think it's my longest ever)
 
vanselus said:
I'll get to posting the sound clips I recorded with all the TARA cables soon. I'll let you know when they're up.

Here's my "as blind as you can get with 2 people and no ABX thingie" test results:

First, Josh (funkyj) and I listened to a clip of music - the first 15 seconds of "Funky Boss" from the Beastie Boys "Check your head" album. This clip is quite open, has some percussion, and things in the background you don't notice in your car. You know the type - and the kicker is that we're both VERY familiar with this song. And it was handy. nuff said.

We took turns taking 2 runs of 10 double-listens to the clip with back turned, in which the other person would randomly swap the cables. The gear was: Tara or generic cable -- Avalon U5 -- cd player -- grado Sr80's. The swapper didn't even have a schedule of swaps, and the listener would cover up any swapping sounds by saying "la la la la la". Heh. Hokey but it worked. I have all the results detailed out if anyone is interested, but essentially, we listened to each clip twice, and tried to hear if there was a difference between the two. Just yes or no. Heard a difference or didn't hear a difference.

Josh correctly identified "diff or no diff" twice out of 10. I got 7/10. Then just for kicks, we did a coin toss (guess heads or tails). Josh did better at 2/5 while I still ruled at 3/4. I actually did better at the coin toss than hearing a sonic "signature" of a power cable. Not exactly "taking a blanket" off my headphones. The only thing that I possibly thought I heard when getting the 7/10, was that I kept hearing more "openness" in one than the other. I started trying to guess which was which, but there was absolutely no consistency in my answers.

We repeated some of the testing (undocumented) by taking turns playing bass through headphones and through our various amps, and neither of us could tell a speck of difference when swapping power cables. The Avalon U5 when unplugged, keeps going for a split second, so we could even swap cables while the sound kept going, and even not knowing when the swap took place.... I couldn't tell when the swap took place.

One thing of note though - I DID use the Tara "The One" cable on a gig, and the darn thing was so heavy, that it actually pulled itself OUT of my amp during a song! It boggles my mind how a $1200 power cable has connectors that look identical to the ones on the generic cable! You'd think they'd come up with something fancy. On the other hand, the connectors on my Evidence Audio "The Source" cable are stamped with "hospital grade" on them, are very beefy, and fit more snugly and securely than any generic cable. No definite sound difference that I can put my finger on, but damned if I like the feel of the cable and snugneses of the connections enough to justify the cost.

Like JT, I definitely could hear a difference in the audio cable. Those clips will be coming soon too. Summary:
generic: plain
monster bass: harsh highs, muddy bass
evidence: tight round bass, smooth highs, clearer overall
tara: tightER bass, smoothER highs, clearER than the evidence

The crappy thing is that I really want to believe Bob Lee in that there should be no difference at all. But I still hear it. So either it's there, or the marketing/packaging/suggestion is biasing my opinions. Ya'll know my passion for bass gear :)

In summary, there's no way in HELL i'd buy a Tara power cable for my bass rig. I couldn't hear any discernable difference in any of the tests, and I can't help but question people who tell stories like the famous "where did my tone go?" story earlier in this thread. I can definitely hear a difference in instrument cables, enough where I don't prefer a generic cable, but not enough where i'd personally spend Tara money on one either. I'm just as happy using Bayou cables, which are excellently made. If you're looking botique and Tara's out of the range I would highly suggest looking at Evidence Audio - great prices, good stuff.

But as JT said, if you're looking for power cables to make a dramatic difference in tone, I'm just not buying it. Even the difference the instrument cables make is slight. I'd suggest the purchase of these high-end cables only if you're happy with all your other gear and just like to have really nice accessories. Otherwise you're much better off buying well-made custom cables for 1/10th the price.

Thanks for letting me participate - it was a blast telling my bandmates that I was using a $1200 power cable - and it was a very fun and enlightening experiment.

(and sorry for the long post. i think it's my longest ever)
GREAT review, thanks so much for taking the time to do such a great test, I really look forward to the clips.
 
Van, great review, much more thorough than my own (although with almost the same conclusions). I'll echo Tim, thanks to you and Josh for taking the time to do that.

SMASH said:
Better tell "Monster".

:eyebrow:

I only use Monster for two reasons:

1) The "no question, no recipt needed" warranty, and dealers practically EVERYWHERE. The "no recipt needed" part is what seperates them from the pack.

2) I work for a Monster Cable dealer (i.e. Retail??? What's retail????? :smug: ;) )

Honestly, I recommend ProCo cables for most people, they work perfectly fine, and sounded indistinguishable from the Tara cables in my test.
 
PhatBasstard said:
He simply stated, correctly, that (except for jt's scope) the testing methods used would not be admissable as conclusive.

To whom?

Scientific test results mean absolutely zero, zip, nada and schmatz AFAIC. What counts is whether or not a musician (specifically this musician) can hear the difference. Period.

All of the results posted so far have been conclusive.

It seems like the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes after all.

I was this >< close to ordering a TARA labs instrument cable because a dealer I respect was carrying them and lauding them on their website. Thanks to Tim, JT, Gard and Van I'll be spending that money (a bit) more wisely.
 
Craig Garfinkel said:
To whom?

Scientific test results mean absolutely zero, zip, nada and schmatz AFAIC. What counts is whether or not a musician (specifically this musician) can hear the difference. Period.

All of the results posted so far have been conclusive.

It seems like the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes after all.

I was this >< close to ordering a TARA labs instrument cable because a dealer I respect was carrying them and lauding them on their website. Thanks to Tim, JT, Gard and Van I'll be spending that money (a bit) more wisely.


They matter to me in the sense that bogus claims by manufacturers can have a detrimental affect on people in the musical community. It's more of a question of ethics than sound quality. Even if ABX testing revealed that only .001% of the population could hear a difference in the cables, the company could still claim that there is a benefit to the community. But if a double blind test reveals that _nobody_ can hear a difference, then I don't want fellow musicians getting ripped off.
 
Craig Garfinkel said:
To whom?

Scientific test results mean absolutely zero, zip, nada and schmatz AFAIC. What counts is whether or not a musician (specifically this musician) can hear the difference. Period.

All of the results posted so far have been conclusive.

It seems like the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes after all.

I was this >< close to ordering a TARA labs instrument cable because a dealer I respect was carrying them and lauding them on their website. Thanks to Tim, JT, Gard and Van I'll be spending that money (a bit) more wisely.
:rollno: ...and after it had all been explained so well (sigh).
 
PhatBasstard said:
:rollno: ...and after it had all been explained so well (sigh).
Let it go. He's talking about something that no one else is arguing about anyway. We all agree, I think, that JT's, Tim's, etc. tests are fine in terms of whether or not WE would like to buy tara stuff. I think we can also agree that the science behind JT's scope test and whatever Bob does will be useful in terms of refuting OR validating any claims that tara makes with regard to how their product works. Makes sense right Craig?
 
unregistered said:
wait how are we going to be able to argue if everybody starts agreeing with each other?! this sucks! :)

Well, we could always go on USENET and argue with Arny about ABX testing. :cool:

I saw right away that you were merely advocating the same methodology for validating or discrediting the anecdotal results, regardless of what those results turned out to be. I'm still looking forward to seeing what Bob comes up with. But then, I work in a culture of peer-reviewed research. There, we can't just say we saw/heard it, and that's good enough.

I can understand and respect the viewpoint of the guys who've essentially said that, but at least a few of us want more. I was hoping that the Tara tests would come up with at least a partial validation of the power cables. I was all set to outsource a knockoff production facility, and live fat. Oh well, back to counting fish! :bawl:

BTW, thanks to all the testers. In no way am I knocking your results. Very interesting read, and I'm sure the "other side" will be around presently.
 
So where's Prockenklang, Long, and the Pro-Tara gang?

(sic)...... I'm going away but wanted to reply first........

First of all,even though I am not surprised at the out-come of these test. As far as I can tell,most,if not all of the testers had their minds made-up before they even got the cables! the only listener that is truly credible is the one who doesn't trust their [own] ears.

I also would like to thank Long and Tara Labs for keeping their word in sending the cables when nobody thought they would,and for being cool about letting these test go on for alot longer than Tim had agreed to.Tara Labs could have easily charged Tim for these cables after the 90 days that they had agreed on,but they didn't,and,considering how much these cost,thats pretty cool.

I am sorry that these test have changed Craigs mind.It is a drag that he never got a chance to try them,yet,Craig,if you are interested I will send you a couple of my personal cables to try if you would like.You are one of the only guys that responded to this thread early on, that had ever delt with Long,and you know that he is not full of B.S.! PM me your phone number,and I will give you a call next week.
John

Moderator Edit:- Prockenklang, I'm very sorry about this. I accidentally edited your post while trying to respond to it. Silly me deleted most of it. I have tried to reconstruct it as best as I possibly can . If anything has been left out,feel free to add it back in. I'll PM you now to notify you of my error. Petebass.
 
Posted by prockenklang
"First of all,even though I am not surprised at the out-come of these test......."


OK, I'm confused. If there is such a noticable difference in the tone with the cables why would the results that most didn't notice a difference not surprise you? I would think that if the difference was indeed there that most if not all would pick up on it right away.
 
vanselus said:
Don't count me in that list. I was very dissapointed that I didn't hear a significant difference, especially since the cables looked so dang cool. I would have bought.
Ditto, even though I was pretty sure of what would happen. If evyone came back and said the difference was amazing and we all had to hear it, well worth the money, etc. I would have bought them too.
 
prockenklang said:
I am sorry that these test have changed Craigs mind.It is a drag that he never got a chance to try them,yet,Craig,if you are interested I will send you a couple of my personal cables to try if you would like.You are one of the only guys that responded to this thread early on, that had ever delt with Long,and you know that he is not full of B.S.! PM me your phone number,and I will give you a call next week.
John

PM will be on the way John. I've been going on and on here lately about how it only matters what I hear, so I should continue to keep my mind open, and take you up on your offer. I will.

I wasn't going to respond to this, but I gotta point out that the statement "the only listener that is truly credible is the one who doesn't trust their [own] ears" makes no sense to me. I wonder how it would go over on a gig if I leaned over to the gu*tar player and said "Dude...how do I sound? After all, I can't trust my own ears!" Or, [Jim Carrey voice on] "Somebody SCOPE me!!! How many giggahertz am I eminatin'?" [Jim Carrey voice off] :rolleyes:
 
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