TARA Labs cable challenge!!

[Munjibunga]

Good point.
And if they can make me sound like Nathan East they're definately worth the $$$.

Aha ... I already have the equipment to make me sound like East ... the Yamaha NE-1. It doesn't seem to work, though.

 

[Petebass]

I say we put a deadline on giving out our results, if bob isn't ready by then, IMO it shouldn't color his review anyhow, he is going for scientific bench tests and such, in which our opinions aren't go to change his findings anyhow. I CAN'T WAIT (sorry pete) for the arguments to ensue after that lol.

I am ready whenever the majority (testers) here feels it is time, this sucker has drawn far past schedule.

OK lets do it (sorry Bob, the natives are too restless).

What's the proceedure? My understanding is that all testers have forwarded all their findings to Tim and he was going to post a summary of some sort - is that still the plan?

If so, go ahead and post it Tim. Wether you post them here or start a new thread is completely up to you.

As for a stickied locked thread - I don't feel it will stop the bucketloads of dribble that will follow. All the "I told ya so" posts will end up in this thread anyway. And I feel people will want to ask questions of the testers.

 

[PhatBasstard]

OK lets do it.

Although Bob's tests will be the only definative ones, uncluttered by human perception and bias (so don't start the "I told you so's" quite yet), I still am very happy to see the results that many (respected) members of TalkBass have come to on the power cable finally seeing the light of day.

And No, Bob's results should in no way be affected by this.

 

[Josh Ryan]

OK lets do it (sorry Bob, the natives are too restless).

What's the proceedure? My understanding is that all testers have forwarded all their findings to Tim and he was going to post a summary of some sort - is that still the plan?

If so, go ahead and post it Tim. Wether you post them here or start a new thread is completely up to you.

As for a stickied locked thread - I don't feel it will stop the bucketloads of dribble that will follow. All the "I told ya so" posts will end up in this thread anyway. And I feel people will want to ask questions of the testers.

Yeah, but I can not read this thread anymore.

 

[ivanthetrble]

As for a stickied locked thread - I don't feel it will stop the bucketloads of dribble that will follow. All the "I told ya so" posts will end up in this thread anyway. And I feel people will want to ask questions of the testers.

But, but, but all the "I told ya so" and "bucketloads of dribble" are what have kept me coming back to this thread for the past 6 monhts.

 

[ModulusFan]

Well, if people would like a collective result report (like I had originally planned), I will be glad to do so, but I myself have not even gotten everyones results.

Here are my thoughts:

First off, I would like to thank Long and the guys for allowing us this opportunity, very cool!

The quality of these cables are superb. If I had to do a gig with gear that had to survive a nuclear explosion, these would be the cables I would bring. To test these cables, I used them with an MTD 535 bass, and a few assorted others of high quality. My test rig is my eden/crown setup through a 410XLT cab. I also used a trace stack at a music store for cheezewiz and I to check out.
The test method we used was just a plain ol "listen and see if you hear a difference". At my home testing, about half the time I would think I heard a difference in tone by switching Tara's instrument cable, with a cheap molded cable that comes with an SX, or any other cheap instrument. Unfortunately, that means half the time I could hear no difference at all with the tara. I would say my testing on the instrument cables were inconclusive at best.

As far as the speaker cable supplied for the test, I heard zero difference between it, and the quality custom cable I normally use, which was bought for $20 shipped.

Power cable: No discernable difference at any point, didn't make my computer run any faster, or pop my popcorn any better either.

Quality is top notch, cust service is super friendly, and awesome as far as I am concerned for letting us do this. Two thumbs up in that department.

I do not have a superhuman ear, nor an overly optomistic attitude in general, so unfortunately I didn't have anything jump out at me as an improvement in tone. If there was, it is subtle, and for the cost involved, it would have to be drastic for me to invest my GAS funds on.

There you have it from my end, (flame suit on)

 

[john turner]

since we're fessing up results, i'll do the same.

the main test rig was my aguilar db680 along with my qsc 3002 power amp, biamped into a 4x12" hartke guitar cab and a 1x18" yamaha bass sub, although i did play through some ampeg rigs and swr rigs when i went to the music stores. at the stores i played passive instruments (mim j-bass) and at home and at gigs i played my conklins with active electronics.

instrument cables: i noticed a very discernable increase in mid range response with the tara labs instrument cables compared to my standard monster cables and a george l instrument cable. while i didn't find this tonal increase aesthetically pleasing, understand that i have my whole rig tweaked to how i like my tone, so any change would have to be compensated for. philosophically i like anything that brings more of my instrument's tone to the amp, so i would consider getting instrument cables from these folks. these changes were also discernable to my band mates, and to random folks who i asked at the gc that i went to, through other amps.

speaker cables : i normally use pretty heavy gauge speaker cables that are pretty short, and when replacing them with the tara labs cables i noticed no difference. i also did the test in music stores but i again noticed no difference from whatever crap cables the music stores were using.

power cables : i noticed no difference with these cables, both at home, in music stores and at 2 gigs in bars with questionable power supplies (one of them blew a breaker while we were setting up, so that's a statement to the quality of the outlets we were using). i used both my standard power cables and actually changed in mid gig.

when i checked the power cables on a scope i noticed no discernable difference in impedance from a standard power cable, but it's been about a decade since i have done serious scope testing, so i may have done something wrong (i doubt it, but i thought that was relevant to say anyway )

i also tried a test with all the cables, and again, the only real difference that i noticed was from the instrument cable - the results were audibly different than my standard setup but not audibly different than the instrument cable test alone.

all of these cables were very well made, solid and seemingly long lasting. i didn't do a wear test on them since i didn't want them to get messed up or anything, but i was very impressed with the quality of the build, even if only the instrument cables really made a difference.

tim if you don't want the results to come out yet or something feel free to delete this until you do.

 

[ModulusFan]

Great review John, I am a bit surprised I didn't hear a definite difference in the instrument cable. Perhaps the cab I used primariliy made the difference a little less noticeable, the 410 xlt's are known for their low mid bump *shrugs*

John, since Bob's tests will be primarily scientific, and bench tests, we decided our opinions would have no effect on Bob's test results, and to go ahead and let the others post their thoughts.

 

[unregistered]

I think it's great that you guys (Tim and John) went to the trouble of conducting a test, and although I regret making any disparaging remarks, I have to point out that without using a double blind test methodology, the results don't carry much weight either way. That is to say, without double blind, neither Tim's or John's or anyone's results can be considered reliable.

It sucks but its the same reason that drug studies have to be performed with incredibly strict double blind tests, since suggestibility can have a profound impact on the results. Subjects who are led to believe that they are receiving doses of a powerful drug can show improvements or be outright cured even when they are receiving a mere sugar pill, just because of the psychological effect of feeling confident that you're receiving the cure.

In a test with these cables, a feeling of sincere confidence arising from impressions created by the quality of the cable construction (in John's case) or from comments from trusted sources (i.e. training or comments from friends) will have a positive effect on the test if the subjects know which sample they are hearing. This is not to say that either John or Tim are gullible, corrupt, or don't have really good hearing- it is simply beyond the control of people to control their responses to suggestion, whether or not they are trying sincerely to be objective and regardless of how they feel about the issue being examined. That's the reason the FDA demands double blind studies and the reason the ABX test was developed for audio testing- they are mechanisms that allow people to give objective answers despite the inherent shortcomings of human recall and judgement.

 

[PhatBasstard]

I think it's great that you guys (Tim and John) went to the trouble of conducting a test, and although I regret making any disparaging remarks, I have to point out that without using a double blind test methodology, the results don't carry much weight either way. That is to say, without double blind, neither Tim's or John's or anyone's results can be considered reliable.

It sucks but its the same reason that drug studies have to be performed with incredibly strict double blind tests, since suggestibility can have a profound impact on the results. Subjects who are led to believe that they are receiving doses of a powerful drug can show improvements or be outright cured even when they are receiving a mere sugar pill, just because of the psychological effect of feeling confident that you're receiving the cure.

In a test with these cables, a feeling of sincere confidence arising from impressions created by the quality of the cable construction (in John's case) or from comments from trusted sources (i.e. training or comments from friends) will have a positive effect on the test if the subjects know which sample they are hearing. This is not to say that either John or Tim are gullible, corrupt, or don't have really good hearing- it is simply beyond the control of people to control their responses to suggestion, whether or not they are trying sincerely to be objective and regardless of how they feel about the issue being examined. That's the reason the FDA demands double blind studies and the reason the ABX test was developed for audio testing- they are mechanisms that allow people to give objective answers despite the inherent shortcomings of human recall and judgement.

Covered (several times) throughout the thread.
And scoped results using a test tone are unbiased and do not need a double blind study.
You can't "scope" someone on a placebo, or anything else, as far as determining true definative effects.

More test results please.
Very interesting, even if not completely scientific.

 

[ModulusFan]

I have to ask, one test of mine came back inconclusive, the other 2 cables yielded absolutely no difference to me over my standard cables.


How would a double blind comparison change any of this?

Also, there was much more testing done by several other members, including double blind tests. I compiled the list of testers, based on the best guys for the job, and to make sure every possible aspect and angle of testing has been done, in every way it can be tested, to try to please all. I'll send out a PM to the other parties to reply here with their testing methods, and their test results.

My testing was simple, plug it in and see what it does for me.......no one else had it that easy Let's get everyones report before we start critisizing

 

[john turner]

I think it's great that you guys (Tim and John) went to the trouble of conducting a test, and although I regret making any disparaging remarks, I have to point out that without using a double blind test methodology, the results don't carry much weight either way. That is to say, without double blind, neither Tim's or John's or anyone's results can be considered reliable.

It sucks but its the same reason that drug studies have to be performed with incredibly strict double blind tests, since suggestibility can have a profound impact on the results. Subjects who are led to believe that they are receiving doses of a powerful drug can show improvements or be outright cured even when they are receiving a mere sugar pill, just because of the psychological effect of feeling confident that you're receiving the cure.

In a test with these cables, a feeling of sincere confidence arising from impressions created by the quality of the cable construction (in John's case) or from comments from trusted sources (i.e. training or comments from friends) will have a positive effect on the test if the subjects know which sample they are hearing. This is not to say that either John or Tim are gullible, corrupt, or don't have really good hearing- it is simply beyond the control of people to control their responses to suggestion, whether or not they are trying sincerely to be objective and regardless of how they feel about the issue being examined. That's the reason the FDA demands double blind studies and the reason the ABX test was developed for audio testing- they are mechanisms that allow people to give objective answers despite the inherent shortcomings of human recall and judgement.

while this would be completely valid in the case of a consumer reports test, please note that i did conduct testing that, while not double blind, would be considered blind in the sense that both the live gigs and the rehearsals and also the music store appearances, nobody knew the point of the test. in fact, i was trying to get them to notice differences in certain "eq settings" where i faked the eq being changed, but didn't do anything, as i changed the cables, using a bogus excuse of "the cable doesn't seem tight, let me re-connect it" in the case of non musicians, and similar ridiculous things with my guitarists. this was at the music stores, at gigs, i complained of faulty cabling, and made sure the sound guy listened carefully to what was going on.

i had nothing to gain by lying about the results, to be honest - i can afford $33k in custom basses, i can afford expensive cables if they make a difference. i wanted to believe that these would - i would like nothing more than to add some sweet functional bling to my rig, but like i said, with the exception of the instrument cables, i could tell no difference, and neither could the sound guys, guitarists and non musicians that heard them at gigs, practice and in music stores.

may not hold up to the fda standards for testing, which i agree would be ideal, but they make a pretty powerful statement on their own.

 

[john turner]

More test results please.
Very interesting, even if not completely scientific.

something to remember, we don't buy music gear on science alone.

 

[john turner]

Great review John, I am a bit surprised I didn't hear a definite difference in the instrument cable. Perhaps the cab I used primariliy made the difference a little less noticeable, the 410 xlt's are known for their low mid bump *shrugs*

John, since Bob's tests will be primarily scientific, and bench tests, we decided our opinions would have no effect on Bob's test results, and to go ahead and let the others post their thoughts.

yeah, it was a frequency hump at about 400-800 hz, probably 3 db or so. i know this because i was able to approximate it with my preamp and my old cable pretty spot on.

i did also notice that the eq difference was not as pronounced with a passive instrument, which i thought very odd. i would've guessed it would've been the other way around, since the passive signal is not as strong and more of the signal characteristics would theoretically be compromised along the way to the amp.

again, take it for what it's worth. might not be double-blind, but it certainly was eyeopening on some things. i must admit i was surprised to the extent of the instrument cable's difference from my monster cable.

 

[Josh Ryan]

John, did you measure anything with a test tone(s) through the instrument cable alone in terms of range, dbs. etc?

 

[Gard]

Unscientific, but I believe somewhat informed and hopefully valid opinion.

First the one word review:

Horsehockey.

Now, the long-winded one:

I had a world of amps, basses, and cables at my disposal, and a helpful hand to blind me to what was happening. I did not know what was plugged in where, power cables, speaker cables, or instrument cables, I had a co-worker (Perry, to those that have been in the shop) change them at random, and not let me know what was what.

We then changed places, and I changed things at random while he was unable to see what I was doing.

We chose three different basses:

Dingwall Afterburner I-5 for passive
Ernie Ball Sterling for active 4
Elrick Single Cut 5 for "modern" low B

Three different amps:

Eden WT-550 because we are both familiar with it
Aguilar DB 359 for "old school tube tone"
Euphonic Audio iAmp 500 for "new school hi-fi tone"

Three different cabs:

Eden D-410 XLT "industry standard" and we're both exceptionally familiar with it
Bergantino HT322 cuz we both dig it
Used Mesa-Boogie 215, cuz it was THERE and didn't have 10's in it!

End result: Neither of use could tell when a cable was changed whether it was the Tara stuff, the generic stuff, or the Monster Cable stuff.

You wanna spend big bux for a power cable cuz you think it will help your tone? Go right ahead, it's your money, but there ain't no way in hades I'd drop a penny on any of this stuff.

There MAY have been a difference in the instrument cables, but in the real world, the difference was so insignificant as to be inaudible in a gigging situation. MAYBE as a studio cable (at which point, I'd let the STUDIO pay for it, I ain't shellin' out their price!), but for a working musician totally pointless stuff.

Bottom line: Spend your money wisely. You'll get more return on your dollars in improved tone by taking a few lessons from your local pro and spending some extra hours practicing than you EVER will from these insanely expensive cables. Fer cripes sake, how in the world can a POWER CABLE change your tone? The power comes from the freakin' wall, if it is going to affect your tone, it will do so before it ever reaches that damn cable!!!!

 

[Munjibunga]

Well, so far, we now know that Tim, jt and Gard all have a tin ear.

Seriously, the results so far are 1,000 percent consistent with my preconceived notions. Further, the difference jt heard in his tone with the Tara Labs cables was reproducible with EQ, hence, even if the tone was "better," there still would be no justification for buying the cables when a little EQ tweak does the same thing.

 

[Josh Ryan]

Well, so far, we now know that Tim, jt and Gard all have a tin ear.

Seriously, the results so far are 1,000 percent consistent with my preconceived notions. Further, the difference jt heard in his tone with the Tara Labs cables was reproducible with EQ, hence, even if the tone was "better," there still would be no justification for buying the cables when a little EQ tweak does the same thing.

[nods head and sips beer]

"yep"

[sips beer again.]


I like Gards method of testing, because he was either expecting something all the time or not expecting something all the time. Jt's audience was expecting a difference from what they heard before, unless he pulled the EQ/cable shell game and then switched a few more times randomly.

 

[PhatBasstard]

something to remember, we don't buy music gear on science alone.

Of course! Otherwise it wouldn't be "Very interesting".

 

[PhatBasstard]

...Tim, jt and Gard...

Now that's funny (even if unintentional, although I doubt it) .