Tax Breaks For Venues Presenting Live Music

[Jeff Bonny]

Why does the government have to fork over money to a business that should be able to make their own way in life? How would they justify that to the taxpayers? Businesses have to be allowed to fail. It's part of a free market economy and amounts to 'survival of the fittest'.

Did you even read my last post before you whacked the SEND button with this?

 

[1958Bassman]

All in all I think the kind of local tax credits I was envisioning are a dumb idea. If not dumb then impractical. To answer some of the more cynical of you there was never a sense of entitlement only a genuine desire to help revitalize a declining scene that in its better days gave venue to people like Rene Rosnes and Colin James among many others. I don't really care who gets the gigs as long as there are gigs to get.

I probably need to open a venue. Maybe a straight for profit business or maybe one run by a non-profit society. The Vancouver Jazz and Blues Society has promoted some great music over the decades but has never consistently done anything long term in a single house. This is an incredibly daunting proposition. I wish I didn't love this place so much. It'd be a helluva lot easier just to move to New York and continue to let it be someone else's problem.

We had a place called The Jazz Gallery in the early '80s and it was really the only good Jazz club. The music scene here has changed several times since and almost all of the well-known Jazz musicians have left town. The locals stopped going and they usually don't like to pay to see a good band. Several clubs used to have great bands of other styles and that dried up, too. Bars are closing, corner taps are dying and people just aren't going out as much as they once did and they're definitely not spending money as freely as they did.

I miss that club. The problem I see is that music no longer has any value to a lot of people. I remember when people used to save for new albums and cassettes, play them until the vinyl was light gray and buy another copy. Now, people want to download it and not pay anything. If they won't pay for a recording that will never wear out, why should anyone expect them to pay for live music that they can't replay?

 

[1958Bassman]

Did you even read my last post before you whacked the SEND button with this?

No, I was responding to the earlier one. Sorry.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Why does the government have to fork over money to a business that should be able to make their own way in life? How would they justify that to the taxpayers? Businesses have to be allowed to fail. It's part of a free market economy and amounts to 'survival of the fittest'.

No offense, but where do you live? Local governments give tax breaks, sweetheart deals on land leases, preferred treatment etc. to ALL kinds of businesses in order to get them to open a factory/warehouse/distribution center/corporate headquarters etc. in THEIR town instead of the next town or county or state over. The alleged advantage being the promise of jobs for the local populace and whatever tax revenue lost by giving the business the break will be replaced by more people paying higher state and local income taxes, sales taxes and property taxes.

I'm not even going to start talking about agricultural subsidies.

Likewise, what free market? It's NEVER been a free market, the history of capitalism in this country has been one of business fighting to monopolize wherever they can, by whatever means necessary and the constant (and often bloody) struggle to maintain the rule of law in the face of government corruption and subsequent co option of the legal system.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

If they won't pay for a recording that will never wear out, why should anyone expect them to pay for live music that they can't replay?

Ed I'm borrowing your eloquence to answer this. From the recent post of yours regarding going to hear live music, "being in the same room and hearing the music as a living, breathing conversation is about as close as you can get to doing it yourself. It gets it out of the realm of a static performance (the recording, always the same every time you hear it) and into a fluid, living interaction." Man, that sure rings true. That the vast majority of people understand this on at least a gut level is why live music running in the black (if only just) is doable. It has to be.

 

[notverygood]

I ended up speaking to a city councilor at a city sponsored festival last week and not surprisingly he echoed some of the specifics maestroedfuqua talked about. What he did find interesting was the idea of a tax rebate on actual money spent on live music. While he didn't think it would ever pass council he encouraged me to bring it forward to keep them thinking about idea of facilitating live music.

One thing to make perfectly clear this isn't about me getting a gig. It's about growing a scene. It's going to be hard for a lot of you to understand how little the Vancouver area cares not just for its musicians but its artists in general. This isn't a matter as notverygood suggested of promoting a band and developing a following to increase negotiating power. Notwithstanding that I'm a career sideman and don't really have "a band" to promote it's a fact no one can fight for gigs that don't exist. I guess you really have to have spent time here to understand how shameful a situation has evolved in the last fifteen years or so.

The observation Canada has a well established history of tax incentives foreign to the American psyche is astute. We also pay much higher taxes.

I never suggested that was the case. I just stated that the political climate here would never go for it. Then I agreeed with another post that it might not be the best use of tax dollars. I never once thought it was about promoting anyone's band. IMO the best way to build up a music scene is from the ground up. Tax incentives for school music programs, tax dollars for youth city music centers,etc would go much farther towards building the type of strong music culture you would like to see. It will not happen in the US anytime soon. If you're not a farmer or an oilman, you're not getting squat.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

BONNIEJEFFBONNY - you might find this of interest...
http://jazzshares.org/

 

[Jeff Bonny]

That's very interesting. I'm inclined to give this kind of community backed grassroots venture some serious thought as getting a venue off the ground and running it full time is something I doubt I have the fortitude to see through.

 

[newbold]

'tax incentives' being breaks on municipal taxes/permit and license rebates, and deductability, or part of a new way that a city could scale the price of its liquor and business licenses?

I think it could be a great idea. I used to run a music venue/bar and as a business, it's a lot harder to keep a legit music venue afloat than a bar that rips off its entertainment.

If there were more proof that clubs and other venues were contributing to the music industry then I'd believe that the Council for the Arts could find a way to direct grants more directly across the country when it's being squeezed by more conservative legislatures...

Perhaps that'd be better received in the DB forum, but apply that logic to other federal and provincial arts groups as well as local initiatives and we'd be moving someplace better.

If we're going to extend tax breaks to multinational corporations, why not help out the little guy?

I fear, however, that Clear Channel would hop on that train and milk it for all its worth.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I fear, however, that Clear Channel would hop on that train and milk it for all its worth.

While Clear Channel wasn't mentioned specifically that any tax break would likely be abused was a main stumbling block for the city councilor I spoke to. Proof of participation was also an issue we discussed.

Thanks for putting the idea in my mind to investigate the Council for the Arts requirements for grants. Maybe combining clinics and master classes with performances is an avenue to consider? I recall a couple of these here in the 80's that were very well attended.