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TC Electronic BG250 Club (Part 2)

It's a tone that kind of is in my head, but it's like uh.. Daft-Punk Get lucky boomy bass sound you know, or even A Perfect Circle Bass tone from the song "The Outsider"
And i usually put both pickups and tone all the way up, and sometimes i solo the neck pickup.
And i tried cranking the bass knob but it's way too muddy and my tone is unclear :/

Although I'm not familiar with the tunes you mention maybe I can still offer you some thoughts about this Nightlease.

First a smaller 1x12 combo amp isn't capable of producing a huge boomy low end. It's simply not designed for that even as much as a 1x15 combo or rigs with multiple 10" or 12" speakers that are tuned to produce more extended LF. Most 1x12 cabinets are more mid focused and have a tighter low end that cuts well in a band mix but needs the support of a subwoofer to produce a bigger bottom end on a gig. It's the nature of the beast.

They're ideal as rehearsal amps and work well for gigs in smaller clubs or as a stage monitor for the bassist when there is a FOH system with plenty of high powered subs to provide that huge bottom end but by themselves they just don't have the balls to do it alone.

The second element in play here is your bass. There's nothing wrong with it per se. The Squier VM Jazz is a decent sounding bass but like any Jazz Bass it's also quite mid focused so it doesn't produce the deeper lows you're looking for either. That's the nature of a Jazz Bass. So when you combine a Jazz Bass with a 1x12 combo you'll get a very punchy mid range that has a lot of articulation and cuts well but if your guitarist or guitarists are playing very loud and very distorted in that same tonal space they'll bury you, your bass, and that amp in the middle of all that.

I had that problem a couple of years ago in a seven piece blues band with two guitarists playing Les Pauls through half stacks and although I preferred playing my Jazz Bass they were burying me even in rehearsals with my 1x12 combo until I started using the 1x15 combo and my PBass so that tonally I could get under that mid range roar they created. If you're facing something similar you may not have the exact tools you need for that particular job. That's why so many guys you see around here have multiple basses and multiple rigs. Sometimes you need that versatility.

I don't mean to pop your balloon because what you own is good gear it just may not be the right gear for that sound you have in your head. There really aren't any Tone Prints that will take the place of what you seem to want either save maybe adding an octave to fill out the lows if the amp will handle it. You might also try a set of flatwound strings that will produce more fundamentals and that may get you a little more bottom end but I'm not sure it will get you all of the way to where you want to go. I don't know exactly what that sound is you have in your head.

One other thing to remember is that it can be very tough to reproduce live what you hear on a recording with just a basic set up. There are all kinds of tricks the engineer and producer can apply in the studio to get what they're after tonally. Many times the bass is recorded straight to the mixing board and it actually sounds very thin with little or no bottom end at all but they want it that way because it's clearer and more articulate. Then they'll enhance it in the mix and blow it up to sound huge by the time they do the final mix down.

If you ever get a chance to listen to some isolated bass tracks from some very popular tunes you'd be amazed at what they sound like in their raw form. I've recorded stuff I thought sounded like crap until I heard the finished product after it was EQ'd and mixed. It didn't even sound like me any longer. Hope this helps a little.
 
Doc and ticol I just picked up a Zoom B3 to run with my BG250 and I may need to pick your brains a bit about how to get the best out of it with this amp. I got it primarily for the amp models, not the effects so that's where my journey will begin today.

I have an analog brain so learning to program a complex DSP device should be very interesting to say the least. LOL
 
Doc and ticol I just picked up a Zoom B3 to run with my BG250 and I may need to pick your brains a bit about how to get the best out of it with this amp. I got it primarily for the amp models, not the effects so that's where my journey will begin today.

I have an analog brain so learning to program a complex DSP device should be very interesting to say the least. LOL
No problem. I have an analog brain too, and my learning curve isn't the fastest one :)

Take your time, because when you combine the bg250 and the zoom b3 you have infinite possibilities and you can easliy spend all your free time trying them !

What worked the best for me was to find at first which was the best eq of the bg250 to have a not too coloured base of tone. The bg250 has its own voice, especially due to the cab and the speaker, so if you don't set it well for what you want to do, it will be more difficult to combine it with the B3.
During a long time I let its eq flat because I thought it would be bad when used with amp sims if tweaked too much its eq. Now I set it with the bass, mid, and treble around -1 (sometimes -2 for the Bass). It gives a flatter tone (less boom and less honkiness).

Second advice : be very careful with the speaker sims of the B3 amp sims. They color a lot the sound, usually but cutting a big amount of mids. It can sound good at home, but as I experienced it, not very efficient with my band. So, begin with the speaker sim mix at 0, and increase the number a bit if you want to give some flavor, but not too much.

Third advice : if you like dirty tones, you can use the amp sims to achieve that (SVT and Super Bass), but feel free to use the Balance level of your patch (left screen when you press Total) to keep some clean signal.

But you'll see, it's an endless quest :)
 
Hello All :)

Thanks for all detailed info on this amp. I pretty much read all of both the 1 & 2 entire club threads ....wehweeee :wideyed: ....

I just pulled the trigger on a BG250-115. I should get It by Wednesday. Just in time for a practice session. So I'll be putting it in the fire right away with a live drummer and two guitarist. I'll offer some thoughts then...

Thanks again,
TJ
 
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No problem. I have an analog brain too, and my learning curve isn't the fastest one :)

Take your time, because when you combine the bg250 and the zoom b3 you have infinite possibilities and you can easliy spend all your free time trying them !

What worked the best for me was to find at first which was the best eq of the bg250 to have a not too coloured base of tone. The bg250 has its own voice, especially due to the cab and the speaker, so if you don't set it well for what you want to do, it will be more difficult to combine it with the B3.
During a long time I let its eq flat because I thought it would be bad when used with amp sims if tweaked too much its eq. Now I set it with the bass, mid, and treble around -1 (sometimes -2 for the Bass). It gives a flatter tone (less boom and less honkiness).

Second advice : be very careful with the speaker sims of the B3 amp sims. They color a lot the sound, usually but cutting a big amount of mids. It can sound good at home, but as I experienced it, not very efficient with my band. So, begin with the speaker sim mix at 0, and increase the number a bit if you want to give some flavor, but not too much.

Third advice : if you like dirty tones, you can use the amp sims to achieve that (SVT and Super Bass), but feel free to use the Balance level of your patch (left screen when you press Total) to keep some clean signal.

But you'll see, it's an endless quest :)

I just finished my response, but I see ticol07 said pretty much everything I did, ha
 
No problem. I have an analog brain too, and my learning curve isn't the fastest one :)

Take your time, because when you combine the bg250 and the zoom b3 you have infinite possibilities and you can easliy spend all your free time trying them !

What worked the best for me was to find at first which was the best eq of the bg250 to have a not too coloured base of tone. The bg250 has its own voice, especially due to the cab and the speaker, so if you don't set it well for what you want to do, it will be more difficult to combine it with the B3.
During a long time I let its eq flat because I thought it would be bad when used with amp sims if tweaked too much its eq. Now I set it with the bass, mid, and treble around -1 (sometimes -2 for the Bass). It gives a flatter tone (less boom and less honkiness).

Second advice : be very careful with the speaker sims of the B3 amp sims. They color a lot the sound, usually but cutting a big amount of mids. It can sound good at home, but as I experienced it, not very efficient with my band. So, begin with the speaker sim mix at 0, and increase the number a bit if you want to give some flavor, but not too much.

Third advice : if you like dirty tones, you can use the amp sims to achieve that (SVT and Super Bass), but feel free to use the Balance level of your patch (left screen when you press Total) to keep some clean signal.

But you'll see, it's an endless quest :)

Thanks ticol. Much appreciated especially your advice on a starting point for EQ'ing the amp. That should save me a little time. I think I'd read in another post somewhere that nearly flat was roughly+1 across the board and you find it's working best a little under that. Good to know. I've been running the bass and highs around +2 and the mids about -1 already so I'll pull the other two back a bit.

I looked over those graphics you posted of the various amp models and cabinet sims and that was some incredible work. Thank you for those. Much easier to visualize things that way than from a verbal description. That was awesome stuff. From what I saw I suspect as you do that those scooped mids many of the sims feature would be a handicap in a live mix. I hadn't planned on using the cabinet sims initially but both you and drpepper have said they can be used with this amp in some moderation so I'll experiment with them a little bit at a time like adding seasoning to taste to a recipe.

If I recall I think I I've have the Spectra Comp selected for a Tone Print and use the Tube Drive on the amp to supply some warmth and little grit if I push my attack a bit and reduce the compression. What are you doing in that regard? Are you using those on the amp or are you finding a Comp and a Booster from the Zoom are a better way to go? I'd planned to use the amp for that initially and leave all effects off the models but I'm open to suggestions regarding that.

I'm trying to keep the modeling as simple as possible to begin with so I can get a better feel for just the amp sims and their best setting without any cabinet sim and then just how much I can add of that to compliment the model before it becomes overkill. I'm approaching this much like I did when I first learned to fly an airplane. Straight and level flight come before stalls and spins and fancy aerobatics might be showy but are rarely useful for getting from point A to point B safely. That and the simple truth that every landing is little more than a well controlled crash. :laugh:

Thanks again for the response ticol and the help. Any and all suggestions or recommendations are truly appreciated.
 
I just finished my response, but I see ticol07 said pretty much everything I did, ha

Doc just chime in with any suggestions whenever and wherever they might be appropriate. You sir are the primary reason I bought the B3 to begin with. I recall when you started using it and posting about it and how well it was working for you so it got me thinking that all those amp sims would be a handy tool to have for enhancing this already great sounding little combo of mine too.

At the time I was six string slinging in another band so most of my efforts and gear budget was being used to add some ornaments and tinsel upgrades there. That gig has ended and I'm heading back to my four string roots so it's time to look at what might be useful in the way of upgrades there. I'm pretty much an "old school" player whose always played plugged straight in save some compression and a tube front end in my amp but that Ampeg head went away a while ago along with the 90lb 4x10 cab and the BG250 with those emulations built in has done a nice job of replacing both. Now it's time to tweak it a bit.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but the Zoom's processor won't handle an amp sim set up in each of the three pedal slots will it? I set an SVT in #1 and the B15 in #2 but when I tried to set an Aguilar in #3 I got that "Thru" indication on the #3 display and the manual tells me that it's rejecting it because I'm over loading the capacity of the processor. Is that correct? If so is there a better way to add the amp sims into just one slot and then step through them that way leaving the other two slots for say a Compressor and a Boost? I'm working through this thing very slowly trying to figure out the most efficient way to use it without messing up my presets after I've created them.

Whatever advice you can send my way will always be gratefully appreciated and my thanks again for the heads up about the B3 to begin with. :thumbsup: I'm looking forward to getting it nailed down and in use soon.
 
Sorry fellow tc lovers but I have upgraded slightly... Definitely won't set the 115 aside though!
ImageUploadedByTalkBass1407907651.204880.jpg

Quick family portrait as I don't think I ever posted a picture of my 115
 
Doc just chime in with any suggestions whenever and wherever they might be appropriate. You sir are the primary reason I bought the B3 to begin with. I recall when you started using it and posting about it and how well it was working for you so it got me thinking that all those amp sims would be a handy tool to have for enhancing this already great sounding little combo of mine too.

At the time I was six string slinging in another band so most of my efforts and gear budget was being used to add some ornaments and tinsel upgrades there. That gig has ended and I'm heading back to my four string roots so it's time to look at what might be useful in the way of upgrades there. I'm pretty much an "old school" player whose always played plugged straight in save some compression and a tube front end in my amp but that Ampeg head went away a while ago along with the 90lb 4x10 cab and the BG250 with those emulations built in has done a nice job of replacing both. Now it's time to tweak it a bit.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but the Zoom's processor won't handle an amp sim set up in each of the three pedal slots will it? I set an SVT in #1 and the B15 in #2 but when I tried to set an Aguilar in #3 I got that "Thru" indication on the #3 display and the manual tells me that it's rejecting it because I'm over loading the capacity of the processor. Is that correct? If so is there a better way to add the amp sims into just one slot and then step through them that way leaving the other two slots for say a Compressor and a Boost? I'm working through this thing very slowly trying to figure out the most efficient way to use it without messing up my presets after I've created them.

Whatever advice you can send my way will always be gratefully appreciated and my thanks again for the heads up about the B3 to begin with. :thumbsup: I'm looking forward to getting it nailed down and in use soon.

Hey soulman969, my comment was tongue in cheek (about having made and not posted comments). IMO, ticol07 is the man as far as both the B3 and BG250 goes. He's someone who observes/listens with a critical ear, comes up with tweaks, tests and compiles, documents and shares things that he finds work (and that don't work).

I've used the BG250 and B3 and come across some things I've really liked, not so much from really digging in and spending a lot of time trying things, but more from doing a little reading and stopping at the first thing that worked for me.

As far as the most efficient way to deal with B3 patches goes, I don't know if I can correct you if wrong. I've never tried multiple amp sims in one patch, so (while I hadn't considered it) I didn't know that it would produce a processing overload...although that does seem to make sense.

Are you using the Edit&Share software? That's the only way I really do things with patches. I rarely touch a knob on the B3 itself. With the software, you can save entire groups and load them, keeping "safety copies" of everything you want to save.

If you're not using the software, that would be my advice; at least as the thing that make the B3 work for me. Some people seem to prefer dealing hands-on, directly with the pedal controls. Another thing I'd suggest, if you haven't already, is to check out CharlieC's "Zoom B3 As Preamp" threads in the Effects subforum. Lots of good info there, and ticol07 has been a big conributor to those as well.
 
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I have a question for those of you that use a preamp, like the B3, with an amp that already has a preamp.
What's the reason to buy a combo amp to use with a B3 and not buy a power amp with speakers or just active speakers?
I thought the reason we buy combos or preamps, is the way they color our sound.
 
I have a question for those of you that use a preamp, like the B3, with an amp that already has a preamp.
What's the reason to buy a combo amp to use with a B3 and not buy a power amp with speakers or just active speakers?
I thought the reason we buy combos or preamps, is the way they color our sound.

A reason that people use a preamp, such as the B3 or VT (or an a bass with active electronics, for that matter), in front of another preamp is that certain pairings produce very good results...potentially better than the amp alone or than would be immediately found with the pairing to a power amp or powered speaker. Sometimes you just find a "magical" combination.

I would guess that the number of people who actually choose/buy a combo in order to use it with a B3 (the way your question frames the decision) is exceedingly low, if not nil.

Yes. One reason that people choose a particular combo is the way it "colors their sound." Other reasons include weight, size, brand loyalty, price, particular features, because it looks cool to them...
 
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Hey soulman969, my comment was tongue in cheek (about having made and not posted comments). IMO, ticol07 is the man as far as both the B3 and BG250 goes. He's someone who observes/listens with a critical ear, comes up with tweaks, tests and compiles, documents and shares things that he finds work (and that don't work).

I've used the BG250 and B3 and come across some things I've really liked, not so much from really digging in and spending a lot of time trying things, but more from doing a little reading and stopping at the first thing that worked for me.

As far as the most efficient way to deal with B3 patches goes, I don't know if I can correct you if wrong. I've never tried multiple amp sims in one patch, so (while I hadn't considered it) I didn't know that it would produce a processing overload...although that does seem to make sense.

Are you using the Edit&Share software? That's the only way I really do things with patches. I rarely touch a knob on the B3 itself. With the software, you can save entire groups and load them, keeping "safety copies" of everything you want to save.

If you're not using the software, that would be my advice; at least as the thing that make the B3 work for me. Some people seem to prefer dealing hands-on, directly with the pedal controls. Another thing I'd suggest, if you haven't already, is to check out CharlieC's "Zoom B3 As Preamp" threads in the Effects subforum. Lots of good info there, and ticol07 has been a big conributor to those as well.

Thanks for the "expert" status :)
I am not really, but I use these tools a lot and I try to understand them :)
 
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