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tc electronic blacksmith

#21
iammr2 said:
Ok. So how have bands been doing it for the past 40 years? Like in the 60's when 100watts was a lot of power and they could still sound good? Or in the 80's when 300watts was a lot and they could sound good? Or today when bands use in-ears and no amps onstage or just monitors? Players have been getting punch and feel for years and on a lot less wattage than your talking about.

Watch out for the Koolaid!
Click to expand...

As one who was around back then, things are very different, and IMO, much better these days. Today, there are drivers available that cabinet makers couldn't even dream of back them. However, there is no 'free lunch'. Some of today's cabs that are small, loud, and go deep, pay a cost in efficiency (i.e., volume per watt). It takes more wattage to get these more fullrange cabs up to full gig volume. The good news today is that watts are light and relatively cheap.

Will everyone need 600, or 750 or 1000 watts today. Of course, not. However, it is great to know you can drive huge low end and a very even, clean response at high volumes out of cabs that are a fraction of the size and weight of what you would have needed way back in the day. That, to me is a wonderful trade-off.... buy an amp with 500-1000 watts that weighs between 5 and 15 pounds, and then use the cabinet of you choice.

It is a wonderful time to be a gigging bassist regarding gear choices. I can literally do a moderate volume rock/pop/funk gig now with 500 watts driving a 3012LF loaded 2 or 3 way cab, and the entire rig weighs under 40 pounds!
 
#22
KJung said:
As one who was around back then, things are very different, and IMO, much better these days. Today, there are drivers available that cabinet makers couldn't even dream of back them. However, there is no 'free lunch'. Some of today's cabs that are small, loud, and go deep, pay a cost in efficiency (i.e., volume per watt). It takes more wattage to get these more fullrange cabs up to full gig volume. The good news today is that watts are light and relatively cheap.

Will everone need 600, or 750 or 1000 watts today. Of course, not. However, it is great to know you can drive huge low end and a very even, clean response at high volumes out of cabs that are a fraction of the size and weight of what you would have needed way back in the day. That, to me is a wonderful trade-off.... buy an amp with 500-1000 watts that weighs between 5 and 15 pounds, and then use the cabinet of you choice.

It is a wonderful time to be a gigging bassist regarding gear choices. I can literally do a moderate volume rock/pop/funk gig now with 500 watts driving a 3012LF loaded 2 or 3 way cab, and the entire rig weighs under 40 pounds!
Click to expand...

I was there too. Dang, we must've had some kind talent to get that tone and punch on puny little 100 watt amps:D Since you sell the stuff, could you be bit biased? I do agree with you in that it's a great time with a lot of choices. I just think some of this has gone over the top. Ya know, bigger is better of course...

I thought he was talking onstage sound with FOH. Why would you need "huge low end and a very even, clean response at high volumes" unless you and the rest of the band were out of control?

Good to read your opinion. I'll let you guys get back on topic now.
 
#23
iammr2 said:
I was there too. Dang, we must've had some kind talent to get that tone and punch on puny little 100 watt amps:D Since you sell the stuff, could you be bit biased? I do agree with you in that it's a great time with a lot of choices. I just think some of this has gone over the top. Ya know, bigger is better of course...

I thought he was talking onstage sound with FOH. Why would you need "huge low end and a very even, clean response at high volumes" unless you and the rest of the band were out of control?

Good to read your opinion. I'll let you guys get back on topic now.
Click to expand...

Don't know why you think I 'sell the stuff'. I'm just a player who likes gear, and I pay retail for everything I own just like most others!

Again, things were not quite what we remember back in the day. And again, absolute wattage means NOTHING without taking into account cabinet sensitivity. For example, my little Acme 112 pretty much reproduces the fundamental of an open B string (another change in technology... the B string... that changed amplification needs quite a bit). However, it takes massive wattage to do that, since again, the rule of 'low, small or loud, you can have two of the three' still applies (physics hasn't really changed since then:smug:).

Also, front of house support does not typically mean adequate stage monitoring for the bassist (i.e., even on my large corporate gigs with massive front of house systems, there are rarely side fill monitors, and I NEVER get my own monitor mix). So, I actually bring a larger rig to those type of gigs than to a moderate volume 'backline only gig' to use as stage monitoring.

You again must take into consideration cabinet sensitivity when talking about watts. Just like the midrange and above response of a guitar takes very little wattage to get loud, a midrange or distorted bass tone also can be achieved with a relatively low powered tube amp (as an example) driving a midrange voiced, relatively high efficiency cab (like the old sealed 10" boxes).

To get a relatively small cabinet to both reproduce a decent E and B string tone at high volumes, and have a non compressed response in the low end when digging in, it can be surprising how many watts can be used. Again, watts are cheap and lightweight these days, so kind of a moot point.

IMO and IME.
 
#24
Also, as we get older, one must be careful to not fall into the 'well, that is the way I did it, so you kids are all full of s***'.:D

I'm sure you remember all the old coots in the dying big bands back in the late 60's and early 70's talking about why 'all these young players would need these 'amp' things'. They couldn't even get their heads around the change. And those bassits with those 'frets'... THAT'S NOT A REAL INSTRUMENT, etc., etc.

The improvement in gear often matches (and in some cases, actually drives) changes in music, in instrumentation and in tonal choices.
 
#25
KJung said:
Don't know why you think I 'sell the stuff'. I'm just a player who likes gear, and I pay retail for everything I own just like most others!.
Click to expand...

My apologies. I thought you were a dealer.

KJung said:
I'm sure you remember all the old coots in the dying big bands back in the late 60's and early 70's talking about why 'all these young players would need these 'amp' things'....
Click to expand...

I'm older, but not ancient;)
 
#26
iammr2 said:
Ok. So how have bands been doing it for the past 40 years? Like in the 60's when 100watts was a lot of power and they could still sound good? Or in the 80's when 300watts was a lot and they could sound good? Or today when bands use in-ears and no amps onstage or just monitors? Players have been getting punch and feel for years and on a lot less wattage than your talking about.

Watch out for the Koolaid!
Click to expand...


You do understand that a 1,000 watt amp is NOT 10X more than a 100 watt amp right ?

Increasing wattage by 10X only results in a doubling of acoustic output.
 
#27
Yes, things used to be different, but not better. :) IMO, never been better than now gearwise. Options to choose from, quality and pricing are better than ever.

Agree about the size of the Blacksmith, I don't get it either. It looks killer though. :)
 
#28
4-string said:
Yes, things used to be different, but not better. :) IMO, never been better than now gearwise. Options to choose from, quality and pricing are better than ever.

Agree about the size of the Blacksmith, I don't get it either. It looks killer though. :)
Click to expand...

I would guess that it was more a marketing decision aimed at a certain type of client (those more concerned about an impressive appearance on-stage than practicality).
 
#29
thanks for the comments...I've been playing for 30+ years myself so I've played through all sorts of stuff, some great and some truly crap. My experience is that for most larger venues you don't get a good mix from the monitors. It just doesn't happen. I want the clarity of a system that has ample head room. It's not necessarily louder, it's just better. If I wanted to go wattage crazy I'd just use power amps. The Blacksmith is expensive and likely out of range for most players, but those dollars do get you you a nice product. When the guitarist(s) and the sound engineers make a point of complementing your tone, that usually means you're on the right path in my opinion.
 
#30
mwig said:
thanks for the comments...I've been playing for 30+ years myself so I've played through all sorts of stuff, some great and some truly crap. My experience is that for most larger venues you don't get a good mix from the monitors. It just doesn't happen. I want the clarity of a system that has ample head room. It's not necessarily louder, it's just better. If I wanted to go wattage crazy I'd just use power amps. The Blacksmith is expensive and likely out of range for most players, but those dollars do get you you a nice product. When the guitarist(s) and the sound engineers make a point of complementing your tone, that usually means you're on the right path in my opinion.
Click to expand...

^^^^ This. +eleventy.

If you can afford it, why not give yourself every advantage you can? If I had the cash free, I'd have one in a split second. As it is, I had to swallow my revulsion for the rampant fanboy-ism that surrounds Ampeg, just because my power needs are extreme on occasion, and my budget's tight because I had to buy a solid, good sounding cab to boot.. The RH750 can handle a 600 seat club, with some room to spare, and the soundman asked me to rein it in a little, as I was pushing it to see what it'd do. It's just short of enough for the two shows that need stupid volume to compensate for a hamfisted monkey on the board, and the booming hip-hop just on the other side of a thin wall. The blacksmith would be the answer to all my problems if it weren't for the cost.

BTW-The SVT 4 arrived, as a f***'in useless, broke-a** pile of iron. THAT is a measurement that can be quantified, and is neither subjective, or perceived. :D
The replacement comes tomorrow, and it had better be reliable, AND it also needs to impress me with its tonal shaping abilities. I don't just need loud- I need loud and clean, with good tonal characteristics.. The B-Smith has all of those. If the SVT fails on any of those requirements, guess who's going back to an RH750, while renting big power for the problem rooms? Me. Gleefully so.
 
#33
seamonkey said:
They're the same actually.

TC has a paper
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I would say ignore all the marketing BS and jump to the table at the end. This is a newly added table.
RH_450 and RH750 both admit to 236W RMS

The Blacksmith admits to 924W
So it is indeed powerful. Much more than a couple of RH's.

Just a note, I don't go for this "Perceived" volume rhetoric often quoted around here. Loud sounds mask quieter ones. Perceived loudness is only loud if nothing else masks it.

But 924w into a good set of cabinets would be incredibly loud - not just perceived loud. I suspect this amp really does deliver. Not to the level of marketing wattage hype they put on it, but as loud as many amps with the similar marketing wattage hype.
Click to expand...

This "perceived volumed" issue is exactly why I'm getting rid of my rh 750 rig. I just don't like the way it gets lost in the mix with two 4x12 cabs . I have 2 2x10 and a 2x12 all tc so I got cab for days but the head just doesn't cut it to me .
 
#35
devilman666 said:
This "perceived volumed" issue is exactly why I'm getting rid of my rh 750 rig. I just don't like the way it gets lost in the mix with two 4x12 cabs . I have 2 2x10 and a 2x12 all tc so I got cab for days but the head just doesn't cut it to me .
Click to expand...

Hmm. Running 2 4x12's? I think your volume issue is more than "perceived", bud.. :D
It sounds like you need more than a standard 750w could deliver in any case.
 
#36
devilman666 said:
This "perceived volumed" issue is exactly why I'm getting rid of my rh 750 rig. I just don't like the way it gets lost in the mix with two 4x12 cabs . I have 2 2x10 and a 2x12 all tc so I got cab for days but the head just doesn't cut it to me .
Click to expand...

If those are two 412s you are fighting against = guitar players with big heads, you definitely don't have cab for days. They might be the un-common, sensible guitarist who doesn't need to "go to 11", but they could definitely drown out the rig you have in a volume war.
 
#37
seamonkey said:
As far as what been reported and admited by TCE on this board, the 750 and the 450 are rated the same "RMS" power.

So you could buy to 450's and possible be the same as a blacksmith

I'd like to know in real life, but I can't trust any amp specs if they are not going to stick to standards.
Click to expand...

We get your point. I’m getting to the point that I may buy a TC head (even though I don’t need one) just to tee off the hate club. Maybe stack it on a pair of DB cabs.

:rollno:
 
#38
jeff7bass said:
We get your point. I’m getting to the point that I may buy a TC head (even though I don’t need one) just to tee off the hate club. Maybe stack it on a pair of DB cabs.

:rollno:
Click to expand...

You got me wrong.
The TC RH amps are outstanding pieces of technology. TC makes state of the art, versatile, and just great sounding gear. All the features of this amp make it an incredible bargain just as a pre-amp. They should sell it as a pre-amp with a built in monitor amp. :D
I wish they would sell just a pre-amp version.

I was actually hoping the bad press would lower the prices just so I could afford one. It hasn't. So people must still believe it's a great piece of gear.

TC is being honest now in publishing the amp ratings. This counts a lot towards their integrity.
 

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