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TC Electronic RH450 discussion - Tweaking the Preamp

How are you communicating with the RH450? Are you using the "special" interface from TC, or did you roll your own?
It's just a midi cable, and you don't need any special drivers for it, so what this tells me is, they're using standard midi comms for this... probably sysex, and the footswitch port has been converted to a midi development port by some special firmware in these test/devel heads.
 
Anyone have any idea if this would include the NS "Polar" piezos on a WAV4 EUB?
You could probably get lots of response from this over in the DB forums, but my guess is that these pickups would work fine with a 1M impedance on a preamp. The WAV basses were designed for crossover players or folks who wanted to experiment with upright playing. I know many folks use these slabs directly into bass combos of all types. At the least, email NS Design, or look for Bob Gollihur over in the DB forum as he seems to know as much about the NS basses as anyone.
 
It's just a midi cable, and you don't need any special drivers for it, so what this tells me is, they're using standard midi comms for this... probably sysex, and the footswitch port has been converted to a midi development port by some special firmware in these test/devel heads.

I was wondering about this when the original post mentioned a "special MIDI split cable" - it needs something extra since a standard midi port isn't bi-directional. But "special firmware"? I was hoping this would work with a stock RH450... I am really interested in getting one, but I'm kinda irked that they only provide three preset memories. With all the wonderful stuff in this box, they skimp on memory? I suppose three is enough for some, but it would have been so easy to provide more.

A little background : I've been trying to find a good, lightweight, portable solution for switching back and forth between multiple cabinets (left at different locations so I don't have to carry them) and multiple basses with widely varied preamp/eq requirements (especially for the passive piezos on my WAV4 electric upright). With the RH400, I'd still need a simple switchbox, but it looks like a better solution than something like a SansAmp Bass Driver Deluxe or an EBS MicroBass II going into a vanilla power amp. However, since I definitely need different settings for the WAV4, and I might need slight tweaks for different cabinets, and I'd like to have some options to setup for different playing styles, I expect three memory locations would get really frustrating.

I know that TC has not committed to making the Tweaker app publicly available, and from what I've read here it's something I'd really like, but need? maybe not. But if I knew I would be able to get a "special MIDI split cable" and control the RH450 using MIDI I/O (without requiring special firmware), that would be huge - I can live with three onboard memories if all it takes to have virtually unlimited presets is a MIDI capable outboard gadget with the right software (I can do software).

So I guess the specific questions are :
Does it definitely require different (vs stock RH450) firmware to send parameter changes over MIDI (most likely sysex)?
How "special" is the "special MIDI split cable"? (would they be easy to make if TC doesn't decide to sell them...)

I'm trying to decide whether I should wait until TC commits to selling an interface that works with current model (or release a model with more memory).

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of any stores around Atlanta or Charleston SC with these in stock?

- James
 
I was wondering about this when the original post mentioned a "special MIDI split cable" - it needs something extra since a standard midi port isn't bi-directional. But "special firmware"? I was hoping this would work with a stock RH450.
As far as I know, and despite others' comments here, I'm pretty sure this whole tweaker deal requires special firmware in the RH450 because it's currently only a development tool. If I'm totally wrong, then that means the RC4 is actually a midi device (quite possible, but I was assuming that wasn't necessarily the case). What may or may not precipitate from this in actual product is still way too far off to talk about... it could be a change to the base product based on our feedback here, it could be the whole software tools thing some folks here are talking about, etc (a derivative of the current tweaker). It could be a total change to the product incorporating some base changes and maybe even new hardware features/controls, etc. It could be a combo of multiple of the above. We just don't know right now.

I am really interested in getting one, but I'm kinda irked that they only provide three preset memories. With all the wonderful stuff in this box, they skimp on memory? I suppose three is enough for some, but it would have been so easy to provide more.
I don't think it's a matter of skimping on memory. Memory is cheap. I'm betting it has more to do with how many buttons they wanted to have on the face of the unit.

A little background...
I expect three memory locations would get really frustrating.
Sounds like you bring a TON of gear to each gig, with a lot of it requiring quite a bit of adjustment to compensate for. I understand your quandary, but would suggest you are in a very tiny minority of the bass market as a result, where three presets are plenty. Also, remember, the presets can be used as base points too. Maybe just have one preset "close" to two or more needs, where only one minor tweak of one knob a few clicks either way is all that's needed for some of your varying requirements. That should be totally manageable even for someone with your particularly complex needs.

I know that TC has not committed to making the Tweaker app publicly available, and from what I've read here it's something I'd really like, but need? maybe not. But if I knew I would be able to get a "special MIDI split cable" and control the RH450 using MIDI I/O (without requiring special firmware), that would be huge - I can live with three onboard memories if all it takes to have virtually unlimited presets is a MIDI capable outboard gadget with the right software (I can do software).
Actually, you do NOT know that, nor do I... unless you're specifically talking about as it is currently today, in which case I'd agree. What we're working with is clearly not releasable product. As such, all your concerns about what you would or would not have to do to support things, is way premature. I'd simply suggest that TC Electronic won't come out with a product that would be insanely hard to use or cause major inconveniences to the gigging musician. I think a lot of the characteristics of this amp as it stands today, as well as this very research effort, prove they understand our needs and concerns.

So I guess the specific questions are :
Does it definitely require different (vs stock RH450) firmware to send parameter changes over MIDI (most likely sysex)?
How "special" is the "special MIDI split cable"? (would they be easy to make if TC doesn't decide to sell them...)

I'm trying to decide whether I should wait until TC commits to selling an interface that works with current model (or release a model with more memory).

On a somewhat related note, does anyone know of any stores around Atlanta or Charleston SC with these in stock?

- James
Per above, again, WAY too early to even suppose or try to make any decisions on any of this.

Maybe I should clarify one thing... again...

What we are working with here is not necessarily an early development version of what will eventually be product. We are ONLY doing a research project here to understand ways to improve the product, and to enable the success of this project, we were given an INTERNAL DEVELOPMENT TOOL that allows us to tweak parameters not available at the front panel.

THAT IS ALL.

Regarding your "wait until" comment, I'm sure the last thing TC wants from this is for people to stop buying product because they think some major huge new feature or capability is on the immediate horizon and don't want to miss out on anything. It could very well be a long time before we even know what is productized from this effort.
 
As far as I know, and despite others' comments here, I'm pretty sure this whole tweaker deal requires special firmware in the RH450 ... We just don't know right now.
I'm more curious about the ability to load/save presets to an external device than the Tweaker software, but I suppose that's still a big unknown.

... I'm betting it has more to do with how many buttons they wanted to have on the face of the unit.
Perhaps, although it could probably be done without more buttons - maybe using the "shift" button with the preset buttons to allow moving up and down through banks (or does that already do something else?)

Sounds like you bring a TON of gear to each gig ...
Not really, but I travel a lot and it would be great to have an ultralight, convenient setup I could move and still get a consistent sound in several locations with just a few extra cabinets.

... I understand your quandary, but would suggest you are in a very tiny minority of the bass market as a result, where three presets are plenty.
Probably true, but I'm not the first one even on this thread to indicate that some standard external control interface (like MIDI) would be a welcome feature.

... presets can be used as base points ... have one preset "close" to two or more needs, where only one minor tweak of one knob a few clicks either way is all that's needed for some of your varying requirements...
That's a good point. In any case, it would be much better than zero presets, which is what just about everything else has!

Actually, you do NOT know that ... unless you're specifically talking about as it is currently today, in which case I'd agree.
Yep, I was only talking about the potential to connect to a "stock" RH450 and send/receive presets (via MIDI / sysex or something similar), not the Tweaker software.

... I think a lot of the characteristics of this amp as it stands today, as well as this very research effort, prove they understand our needs and concerns.
FWIW, I am rather surprised - and very impressed - that they not only initiated this program, but actually allow y'all to discuss it in public. That in and of itself proves quite a bit.

... WAY too early to even suppose ... We are ONLY doing a research project here to understand ways to improve the product ... THAT IS ALL.
Um, maybe I'm missing something, but most of what I said was trying to offer suggestions on how to improve the product. Specifically, besides bringing up the limited number of presets, I wanted to reinforce the idea (which others have already mentioned) that some way to remotely control load/save presets on the RH450 would be a welcomed addition, completely independently from the Tweaker software.
I suspect TC is watching this thread closely, and the way they set this up indicates that they are already willing to think outside the box, so to some degree ANY ideas or feedback is valued. While I don't expect them to simply announce that they'll ship this to anyone who wants it tomorrow, I do expect that they will very seriously consider just about any suggestion that comes through this thread. Doesn't mean they're automatically going to do it, but at least they're listening. Otherwise it would not have been worth the time to write all this up.

Regarding your "wait until" comment, I'm sure the last thing TC wants from this is for people to stop buying product because they think some major huge new feature or capability is on the immediate horizon and don't want to miss out on anything. It could very well be a long time before we even know what is productized from this effort.
Yeah, I can see that. I probably could have worded that better... for me it's not a case of holding off on purchase due to the fear of missing out. It's more that I wasn't even considering the RH450 as an option until I saw this thread. What I really want doesn't exist yet. While the RH450 comes close to meeting my (admittedly atypical, but unlikely unique) needs, if I'm going to accept a compromise I can get by a lot cheaper.

I very specifically went looking for a solution which would give me a solid, compact, and flexible preamp/EQ section w/effects loop, a good DI output, and the ability to store and recall multiple (more than 3) setups. I wasn't necessarily looking for an integrated power amp or compression (although have less gear to worry about is a bonus). I didn't realize anyone made a compact, digitally controlled head until I saw the RH450. In many ways it's probably more than I need, except for having so few presets. But the possibility of getting past that limit via MIDI would potentially make it nearly perfect for me - if I knew I'd be able to do this sometime in the near future I'd probably already have one on order.

Again, I agree that there probably aren't a huge number of people out there who would be happily buying one if only it had a MIDI/USB port, or 30 preset memories instead of 3 (besides, what's the alternative?). OTOH, I might not be the only one, and if I were in TC's shoes I'd certainly want to know that something potentially as simple as the ability to store more presets could mean more sales. Or that being limited to only three might be enough to keep a few prospects waiting for BASS 3.0...

It's been a long time since I went looking for new bass gear, and I guess I was expecting a lot more digitally controllable mid to high end equipment. I was writing MIDI patch editors 25 years ago, so I suppose I've always expected things to move that way (digital automation, even with analog signal paths). TC has already done the hard work to make that possible, all they need to do is open it up so that we can use it. From what we've heard in this thread, it seems that the hardware is already capable, it's just a matter of providing the cable and firmware for MIDI access. That would be a very exciting feature. I'm actually surprised it wasn't available from the start.

Anyhow, I'm sure I've said more than enough to get my point across. And again, the reason I spent the time to write (and write, and write) was that I have quite a bit of respect for TC's willingness to put together this kind of program. I'm not complaining about what I think they got wrong, I'm trying to explain what would make their product more compelling to me, because it seems they actually care enough to be interested in that, and it's is so tantalizingly close...
 
Off topic chaps:

The TC Nova Repeater is FANTASTIC! It works on bass pretty well, I use it with my guitar and wow, perfect compact delay.

I'm going to be gigging the RH450 with tweaked high end at the end of May. After that I have a pretty long list of gigs, and plenty of rehearsals.
 
I'm more curious...
You made some really great points in this post. Let me just say that I agree it would be cool to have some sort of a software product and a compatible interface in the amp productized and available someday, and your idea for using the shift to augment the memory buttons for six total presets is a great one.
 
Ok so after getting all excited now I'm may be getting a bit bummed out. So the tweak software doesn't work on any of your owned heads? (totally understand if no one has tried it yet out of safety of their gear or TC rules).

I really want to hear that there is potential for my existing head to get opened up on the top end. Not if there is a product for future production just that its possibility. If my head doesn't have the firmware to connect to the software than I know its not possible.

Regardless of how much you tell us not to get our hopes up it is to late, this bass player has no self control, you should see me move on stage when the music gets extra groovy:). If someone could confirm that the tweakware works on the existing production heads then I'll try to curb the festering excitement and pray it becomes a product. If not, I'd rather take the disappointment now and go back to searching for other high end solutions: graphic eq's, exciter pedals, preamps, new heads, diff. cabs...

Also, not as important but, I would love to eliminate my limiter pedal after creating custom spectracomp with the tweakware, I think there is so much potential here to tweak it into the greatest envelope filter limiter ever! Oops... trying not to get to excited. Kind of wish TC wasn't dead to Bongo because I would love to hear his review on this.

That being said, the bright switch on my j-retro preamp boosts 8db at 7k which does opens the top a bit through through the RH450. Not as much as it would with an adjusted LPF but I imagine others could find similar temp solutions as well.
 
...I think there is so much potential here to tweak it into the greatest envelope filter limiter ever!
An envelope filter does more than a compressor can. A compressor tracks absolute level, whereas an envelope filter is tracking time as well. Some envelope filters have the ability to dynamically adjust their frequency bands over time. The TC compressor can't do this; it simply doesn't do anything in the time domain.

That being said, the bright switch on my j-retro preamp boosts 8db at 7k which does opens the top a bit through through the RH450. Not as much as it would with an adjusted LPF...
Yes, you can compensate by heavily boosting, but, as you've probably noticed, that boost increases noise. Opening the LPF would certainly simplify your rig.
 
I'll offer a counterpoint to the "zillion options" approach. I frankly think that TC hit a pretty good compromise with the 3 presets and amount of flexibility built into the stock amp. One of the biggest problems with products in general today is lack of usability and inclusion of features that few/none actually use. Adding features while still keeping a relatively simple UI is a difficult if not impossible task. At some point multitasking knobs and buttons turn a usable amp into a CF. Take a look at keyboard UI design for some examples. I find most of them miserable to navigate unless you either have a big touchscreen *or* have a nice simple UI like the Nords.

If TC were to pack any more features/presets/etc into the head, I think they have to go do a very different UI for the amp. I also should qualify my views in that I really don't like fiddling with things. I want a good sound that I'm looking for, and then I'm done. Minor eq tweaks depending on the room, but the last thing I want to be doing on a gig is fiddling around with some convoluted UI trying to adjust the Q from 0.2 to 0.25 for the 350hz sider. I'm tired enough of watching guitarists waste my time while they scroll through their Line6 or other modeling system looking for the "right patch." ymmv.
 
An envelope filter does more than a compressor can. A compressor tracks absolute level, whereas an envelope filter is tracking time as well. Some envelope filters have the ability to dynamically adjust their frequency bands over time. The TC compressor can't do this; it simply doesn't do anything in the time domain.

I was trying to say I wanted to use it as the perfect filter limiter, not as a filter, I have gone through many limiters that effect the tone of my filters in a way that bugs me, I want one that maintains the tone of the filter but protects my ears and speakers when it really quacks. Limiters are commonly used for this right?:) I don't have much interest in compression more interest in limiting.
 
I'll offer a counterpoint to the "zillion options" approach. I frankly think that TC hit a pretty good compromise with the 3 presets and amount of flexibility built into the stock amp. One of the biggest problems with products in general today is lack of usability and inclusion of features that few/none actually use. Adding features while still keeping a relatively simple UI is a difficult if not impossible task. At some point multitasking knobs and buttons turn a usable amp into a CF. Take a look at keyboard UI design for some examples. I find most of them miserable to navigate unless you either have a big touchscreen *or* have a nice simple UI like the Nords.

If TC were to pack any more features/presets/etc into the head, I think they have to go do a very different UI for the amp. I also should qualify my views in that I really don't like fiddling with things. I want a good sound that I'm looking for, and then I'm done. Minor eq tweaks depending on the room, but the last thing I want to be doing on a gig is fiddling around with some convoluted UI trying to adjust the Q from 0.2 to 0.25 for the 350hz sider. I'm tired enough of watching guitarists waste my time while they scroll through their Line6 or other modeling system looking for the "right patch." ymmv.

I agree to an extent, I just want to find a more suitable LPF setting and tweak the, FOR MY PLAYING "non usable," compressor to a custom peak limiter. Then latter the controls of the amp will be the same except more natural high end and now an unused comp will become a used limiter. All I'll carry to a gig is my bass, amp rig and a Mutron.
 
Yes, you can compensate by heavily boosting, but, as you've probably noticed, that boost increases noise. Opening the LPF would certainly simplify your rig.

Actually not so much:hyper: I think my terrific preamp and the amazing RH450 don't have hardly any noise, at least not close to guitar amp buzz or PA buzz. I can honestly say I've noticed zero buzz from this system. (Well sometimes around those "green" bulbs or when I'm not touching the bass strings or controls there is a minor fuzz floor but it is REAL minor). Perhaps the combo is just magical.
 
I agree to an extent, I just want to find a more suitable LPF setting and tweak the, FOR MY PLAYING "non usable," compressor to a custom peak limiter. Then latter the controls of the amp will be the same except more natural high end and now an unused comp will become a used limiter. All I'll carry to a gig is my bass, amp rig and a Mutron.

I'm not against something being programmable, and I certainly applaud this testing. I think that a few tweaks and controls could be crammed onto the existing setup, but not much. What I figure is that this testing will identify one or two adjustments that would give the maximum benefit/cost ratio and they'll be added. But it is a slippery slope, and you can never please all the people all the time.

My gut feeling is that the LPF adjust and something with the comp will be the two "hot ticket changes". Right now though you are almost maxed out on what you can do with a single "shift" UI perspective. If you want to control any more parameters you have to start looking at a different implementation (multiple shifts and/or more knobs and/or some modal "tweak" interface). At some point you start to lose prospective owners due to the complexity. Not sure where that break point is...
 
I was trying to say I wanted to use it as the perfect filter limiter, not as a filter...

That should certainly be possible. Limiting is generally accomplished by choosing the right threshold and a high compression ratio, both of which are definitely adjustable on the RH450.

Each frequency band of the comp has its own threshold and ratio, so you can adjust it somewhat to work with your tone.

My impression of the SpectraComp level control is that it adjusts all the thresholds simultaneously.
 
Hi guys. I'm VERY excited to be announcing this. Uffe Hansen at TC Electronic has invited 5 TB users to particpate in a test group for the RH450 and an internal beta version of a PC application that allows the user to access internal settings on the Preamp. The connection between the RH450 to the PC is facilitated by a special USB-to-Midi cable that connects to the "Remote" port on the back panel of the RH450.

The users who were invited are:

KJung
Vic
Tom7
Musicman20
Eublet (myself)

Enjoy yourselves guys. Personally I was enormously interested in the amplifier until the Test Pilot debacle.

I did buy a lightweight amp - a Carvin BX1500. That sale would have been TCs!

Paul
 
I'm not against something being programmable, and I certainly applaud this testing. I think that a few tweaks and controls could be crammed onto the existing setup, but not much. What I figure is that this testing will identify one or two adjustments that would give the maximum benefit/cost ratio and they'll be added. But it is a slippery slope, and you can never please all the people all the time.

My gut feeling is that the LPF adjust and something with the comp will be the two "hot ticket changes". Right now though you are almost maxed out on what you can do with a single "shift" UI perspective. If you want to control any more parameters you have to start looking at a different implementation (multiple shifts and/or more knobs and/or some modal "tweak" interface). At some point you start to lose prospective owners due to the complexity. Not sure where that break point is...

Agreed, amps with 20 knobs scare me just thinking of the amount of time I'd spend tweaking.
 
It's just a midi cable, and you don't need any special drivers for it, so what this tells me is, they're using standard midi comms for this... probably sysex, and the footswitch port has been converted to a midi development port by some special firmware in these test/devel heads.

The footcontrol uses a midi cable. In Uffe's first email, he said the software would work on any RH450, but that, given the 'test' nature of this reduced version of software, he sent us test heads in case something went wrong or there were as yet uncovered bugs in the software.

However, that's really not what this is about. It's rough 'test' software just to get some feedback and see if there might be interest in an actual product release of this type of thing down the road.