TC Electronic RH450 discussion - Tweaking the Preamp

[Vic]

Not sure what you mean by that....is the amp brittle above 10k...or the RH210???

I think he's making a general comment about bass amps and cabs, since we're talking about opening up the high end on the amp. I would agree with him... I can't imagine anything really usable above 10k for bass, and I think most of what we call "bright" lives between 3-8k, as well. IMHO, 10-20kHz is pretty much useless for bass, and doesn't really do anything except introduce various sounds most of us would simply consider undesirable noise.

 

[KJung]

I think he's making a general comment about bass amps and cabs, since we're talking about opening up the high end on the amp. I would agree with him... I can't imagine anything really usable above 10k for bass, and I think most of what we call "bright" lives between 3-8k, as well. IMHO, 10-20kHz is pretty much useless for bass, and doesn't really do anything except introduce various sounds most of us would simply consider undesirable noise.

+1 The other issue is noise. If you have a cab with an aggressive tweeter that has high SPL way up top, extending the top end that much just adds noise, and no really extra tone. It seems that again 8K-10K is a good top end for a nice upper treble sparkle with a minimum of noise.

I guess the other thing is that the lo pass filter is described as a gently -3db slope starting at the lo pass set frequency. So, it's not like a 'hard stop' anyway, and you can muscle a bit more extended top end out if it even at the 5K setting.

I tell you want, there is a lot to the voicing of an amp way up there if you are one who enjoys a full range tone (i.e., to reproduce and amplify frequencies above the typical 2K or whatever of most drivers. As you might be able to hear in my clip, dialing the tweetertone from 5K to 10K really impacts the 'vibe' of the amp for me, going from old school to more 'solid state' modern sounding, just with that slight tweak.

IMO.. and.... IME!

 

[KJung]

Took a lunch break (great having an office that is also your practice space!) and recorded a clip using the low mid control to demonstrate the effect of the variable Q, which changes the semi-parametric midrange controls on the RH450 into full parametric mid controls... level, frequency, and frequency distribution width.

Clip should be ready for viewing in about 25 minutes. I'll post a direct link.

FYI!

 

[uaudio]

This is probably the most exciting thing going on Talkbass right now. I cannot wait until people start exchanging presets.

This is what I envisioned ever since I saw this amp's specs. So if you had a complete parameter control over the device, could you measure the output of other amp/cabinet combinations and adjust the 450's settings to sound very close? If so, could the 450 replace my tonehammer and VT bass?

Could you use something like TrueRTA to do this?

 

[KJung]

OK, 'Q' clip is up. It's not meant to show how to use it to get a 'good tone' (I'm uploading a final clip from my experience now, putting everything together... Q, Lo Pass, and the onboard center feq/shelving start point to show how the amp can be sculpted to generate a particular tone).

However, for those of you not that familiar with full parametric controls (very few bass amps have full parametrics), hopefully this will let you hear the difference between a 2 octave, 1 octave and half octave cut and boost at the default 400hz.

I'll have my 'final' clip up in about a 1/2 hour, varying a number of parameters to generate a tone I really like.

I assume someone else will dive into the amazing compressor tweaking capability.... that is over my head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOOKKDblw6s


Edit: On a side note, that 'out of the box' neutral RH450/RS210 tone in the first few seconds of this clip sounds killer to me. This stuff is really voiced for the warm punch and growl... wonderful IMO.

 

[KJung]

This is probably the most exciting thing going on Talkbass right now. I cannot wait until people start exchanging presets.

This is what I envisioned ever since I saw this amp's specs. So if you had a complete parameter control over the device, could you measure the output of other amp/cabinet combinations and adjust the 450's settings to sound very close? If so, could the 450 replace my tonehammer and VT bass?

Could you use something like TrueRTA to do this?

This software is currently a kind of rough (although pretty good already) prototype, so not full control over some of the parameters, etc. However, my feeling is that all this stuff has an inherent tone to it, and you can tweak all you want, but the basic pre design, the power amp, the type of power management system, etc., etc. is still going to result in this head having a signature tone (which is a good thing).

It's why all these cab companies and amp companies that say their amps/cabs are flat and that 'you get out what you put in' all sound completely different

However, it is very cool to be able to have full parametric control over the mids, and also the lo pass filtering. Those are the only two functions that, to me, add anything of substance over the amazing on-board capability of the RH450 right out of the box.

IMO!

 

[Eublet]

I think he's making a general comment about bass amps and cabs, since we're talking about opening up the high end on the amp. I would agree with him... I can't imagine anything really usable above 10k for bass, and I think most of what we call "bright" lives between 3-8k, as well. IMHO, 10-20kHz is pretty much useless for bass, and doesn't really do anything except introduce various sounds most of us would simply consider undesirable noise.

This is exactly what I meant.

 

[KJung]

OK, my final summary clip is up, varying the upper mid Q distribution, the nature of the top end with the lo pass filter, and then the 'on-board' center points and boost/cut, in order to generate a slap tone that I really like.

My guess is, this is halfway between the mege-goosed Staccato and the stock RH450. Nice!!!!

This clip is pretty cool IMO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy4LyNQLw8c

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Ken, can you post a screen shot of the compressor parameters? I'm curious.

Naturally, if your agreement with TC restricts you from doing so, I understand.

 

[mothra2]

I think he's making a general comment about bass amps and cabs, since we're talking about opening up the high end on the amp. I would agree with him... I can't imagine anything really usable above 10k for bass, and I think most of what we call "bright" lives between 3-8k, as well. IMHO, 10-20kHz is pretty much useless for bass, and doesn't really do anything except introduce various sounds most of us would simply consider undesirable noise.

I have Acmes and a Mil Media Origin/Crest. These freq's are subtle but audible to me (when flat) and I can boost those freq's and hear them quite plainly (not on the gig so much, of course) . But the point is they are there even for my alder Jazz, part of the basses sound, and quite musical (add 'air' etc.) IMO. Useless on the gig (simply because they are buried) is one thing, but undesirable noise, I think not IMO.
If it's a case of less than ideal amp/cab implementation for that range of freq's that makes some players avoid them, then why not call it that (rather than dismiss/excuse it based on subjective value)?

 

[engedi1]

Maybe my ear buds aren't good enough but I can't really hear significant differences! I'll go home tonight and listen to this again with my studio headphones

 

[KJung]

Maybe my ear buds aren't good enough but I can't really hear significant differences! I'll go home tonight and listen to this again with my studio headphones

It should pop pretty well with a decent playback system. I always check on my 'average' PC system (a basic Altec Lansing satellite with subwoofer system) that I hear on the clip pretty much exactly what I hear live.

However, on the last clip, I am boosting and cutting no more than around 3-4db (a little EQ goes a long way when you have a good signal.. Sadowsky.... going into a rig that is relatively full range like the RH450.

 

[KJung]

Ken, can you post a screen shot of the compressor parameters? I'm curious.

Naturally, if your agreement with TC restricts you from doing so, I understand.

Hello,

The only reason I agreed to be part of this is that TC put absolutely no restrictions on any of this. Uffe is a very upfront and nice cat, and I warned him that if I thought the whole thing sucked, that's what I posted up

So, no conceptual issue there. However, I don't have the skill to 'shoot a screen shot'. Vic would probably be the man for that!

K

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Thanks, Ken. The Mac does screen shots easily, and I thought the PC had some way to do that easily. But then again, it's Windows...

 

[Eublet]

There's a printscreen button on a PC. It captures the whole screen so you can paste it into anything and save it. If you hold down the Alt key first, pressing print-screen only captures the active window.

Vista and Windows 7 come with an app called "Snipping Tool" that lets you drag a border around any area of the screen, and it clips that. You can then highlight it or mark it up before sending to someone.

 

[KJung]

There's a printscreen button on a PC. It captures the whole screen so you can paste it into anything and save it. If you hold down the Alt key first, pressing print-screen only captures the active window.

Vista and Windows 7 come with an app called "Snipping Tool" that lets you drag a border around any area of the screen, and it clips that. You can then highlight it or mark it up before sending to someone.

So that's what that prtscn button is for Even though I'm on the computer all day, I've never gone to school on the 'fun stuff'. Too may years of typing code

 

[Gilsonite]

Man, if you like to tweak your sound, I wonder what the RH450 preamp
out would sound like with this cabinet's tweaking capabilities

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Vic]

Ken, can you post a screen shot of the compressor parameters? I'm curious.

I don't have the skill to 'shoot a screen shot'. Vic would probably be the man for that!

Here you go. Not hard at all. Just ctrl-prtscrn puts it in the clipboard, then paste it into whatever paint/image program you have installed, save as whatever format, done.

I cropped it to just the controls...

 

[Musicman20]

Interesting videos Ken, and the one I can hear a massive difference is on the Q Control demonstration. Cool!

 

[KJung]

Interesting videos Ken, and the one I can hear a massive difference is on the Q Control demonstration. Cool!

Yeah, that vid was not meant to arrive at a good, musical tone, but rather to use some extreme settings to show the impact of that control.

The other vids are more 'real world' tweaks using subtle shifts in EQ (IMO, that's the way EQ is meant to be used) to sculpt the basic sound of the head into different directions, versus hammering the head to be something it is not. However, if you have a good playback system, the changes are meaningful, and IME come through even in a relatively dense mix.

That being said, my primary finding in this process is that the RH450 sounds great, and just a touch more top end would make it perfect (especially if that could be controlled with the 'tweetertone' type knob). All the other stuff in the software is 'that final 1%' that IMO would probably not be that interesting to the vast majority of players.

I guess I would suggest that the Q on the high mid control be set at 1 octave versus the 2.2 currently (the 2.2 on the low mids is great for boosting, but the 2.2 on the upper mids is a bit wide for cutting), but that is minor.