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TC Electronics RH450 Quasi-Wattage Ratings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jarrett
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I might be a bit weird but anyway...
I have been looking into buying a new amp, specifically either the ampeg pf500 or the rh450.
The reason I want a new amp is because the one I currently have, doesn't quite have the volume I need.
Anyway....all this talk about the rh450, has convinced me that this is the amp for me.
The fact that people are so shocked at the wattage compared to how loud the amp sounds to them, for some reason, makes me like the amp even more.
I feel fairly confident now in reading all these posts, that the rh450 will be loud enough for me.
I have been looking into buying a new amp, specifically either the ampeg pf500 or the rh450.
The reason I want a new amp is because the one I currently have, doesn't quite have the volume I need.
Anyway....all this talk about the rh450, has convinced me that this is the amp for me.
The fact that people are so shocked at the wattage compared to how loud the amp sounds to them, for some reason, makes me like the amp even more.
I feel fairly confident now in reading all these posts, that the rh450 will be loud enough for me.
The article says "measured impedance 10.54". Looking at the chart that must be some sort of average. The lowest dips in the region where the woofers are playing look to be about 7 ohms. That is for the 210 cab where one of the woofers is a coax using an asd1001 driver if that matters. Using the .7 method they would be about a 10ohm cab. You could label that as an 8ohm cab and have a little room left with 2 of them paralleled or chain 3 together and maybe be pushing it a little bit on a 4ohm min. amp I guess?
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
That may be, but that's not how it's done. With direct radiators it's based on the DCR, which in many cases may coincide with the minimum impedance, but not necessarily.
The 11.54 " measured" is for the 212 cab. Again, the lowest dips on the chart run around 7ohms. They should be calling their measured impedance an average.
TC does in fact advertise being able to use 3 of their "8ohm" cabs but only 2 of the competitors....confusing for the average bass player. The coax tweet is evident in the higher frequencies and runs around 8ohms like most tweets.
TC does in fact advertise being able to use 3 of their "8ohm" cabs but only 2 of the competitors....confusing for the average bass player. The coax tweet is evident in the higher frequencies and runs around 8ohms like most tweets.
I hope my utillity company doesn't decide to charge me for "Quasi-Watts" or my bill will double.
"You only used 450 kilowatt hours this month, but due to all your high efficiency light bulbs and appliances, you actually lived like you used 900 kilowatt hours. Therefore, we shall charge you for the 900 quasi-kilowatt hours instead of the 450 you actually used"
"You only used 450 kilowatt hours this month, but due to all your high efficiency light bulbs and appliances, you actually lived like you used 900 kilowatt hours. Therefore, we shall charge you for the 900 quasi-kilowatt hours instead of the 450 you actually used"
The way I understand the cabs... of course 8 ohms is a nominal figure for any cab. And it's possible the amps can go a little below 4 safely, but not enough to consider it safe at 2.
So I can understand them saying three of their cabs are OK on their amp... they've measured it all out and can guarantee it is safe. Whereas some other 8 ohm cab may or may not be. They have no way to know, so can't guarantee it is safe, so they say "only with our cabs".
That's not so bad, for the reasons given... basically that the ohm rating of a cab is an approximated minimum by its very nature. (Out of my element here though... if I'm getting it wrong, let me know.)
So I can understand them saying three of their cabs are OK on their amp... they've measured it all out and can guarantee it is safe. Whereas some other 8 ohm cab may or may not be. They have no way to know, so can't guarantee it is safe, so they say "only with our cabs".
That's not so bad, for the reasons given... basically that the ohm rating of a cab is an approximated minimum by its very nature. (Out of my element here though... if I'm getting it wrong, let me know.)
I sent him a message. We'll see what happens. To some, it's not a big deal - fine. To some, it is. Misrepresentation. One can not be expected to be as technically savvy as the person who designed the amp. It's like car shopping - what do people look at? MPG, Horsepower, company reputation, features, safety, price - what you are getting for the money. But do most people ask about how the automatic transmission works (like the Nissans with the new transmission and shifting technology) or how horsepower affects the vehicle when loaded with passengers? Suffice to say that there are some basic guidelines to making a purchase - to feel informed enough, to feel confident in a purchase. That was taken away in this case - and to some it means more than to others. How this PR nightmare is resolved is up to TCE.
I'm thinking they should just leave that measured impedance number out entirely and just post the chart. That number doesn't really make any sense without an explanation of how it's arrived at and really doesn't tell you anything. A dcr reading would be better.
When i buy an amp, i listen to the tone; do I like it? I listen to the volume; is it usable for the situations in which i play? I try all the features; are they needed? Do they perform in a way that I can use?
In other words, is this the amp for me?
With this method i've bought a Hartke 3500, a Aguilar 750, a QSC USA 850 (with a preamp), a SWR SM-900, an Ampeg SVT Classic, a Markbass LM2, a TC RH450 and a TC RH750 to name a few. I still have the Ampeg, the Markbass and the RH750.
Outta all these amps, only the Hartke, the Ampeg and the TC's have performed in a way that made ME feel like they played louder than the wattage promised. Despite this all but the QSC have performed very well on many gigs and recordings. Why do I sometimes change and buy a new amp? GAS!;-)
Why do I have such a high rate of succes in choosing amps? Because I listen! Not to the company but to the amps!
I don't give a rat's a.. about what a particular company writes about their latest product; I have to try it out in order for me to really say if I like it! Simply as that!
That being said; i don't like being lied to. I hope that TC will do better in the future regarding this subject.
But it boggles me that my LittleMark2 is being marketed as 500w in 4ohms but cannot perform at the same volumelevel as my TC RH450 (450w in 4ohms). Why the hate for TC but none for Markbass? My SM-900 didn't play louder than either of my TC heads. Where's the hate about SWR?
Bear in mind that i like (liked) all my amps (except the QSC) for their tone AND the volume(i needed 'em for).
But i cannot understand why there's so many haters about TC? We've been lied before; we've been lied to in the present and we will be lied to in the future. That's why i choose only based upon MY ears and what they are telling me! Try it and stop being a hater;-)
This isn't aimed at any one and it only expresses MY opinion. You are entirely free to form your own opinion and vent it!
Peace...
In other words, is this the amp for me?
With this method i've bought a Hartke 3500, a Aguilar 750, a QSC USA 850 (with a preamp), a SWR SM-900, an Ampeg SVT Classic, a Markbass LM2, a TC RH450 and a TC RH750 to name a few. I still have the Ampeg, the Markbass and the RH750.
Outta all these amps, only the Hartke, the Ampeg and the TC's have performed in a way that made ME feel like they played louder than the wattage promised. Despite this all but the QSC have performed very well on many gigs and recordings. Why do I sometimes change and buy a new amp? GAS!;-)
Why do I have such a high rate of succes in choosing amps? Because I listen! Not to the company but to the amps!
I don't give a rat's a.. about what a particular company writes about their latest product; I have to try it out in order for me to really say if I like it! Simply as that!
That being said; i don't like being lied to. I hope that TC will do better in the future regarding this subject.
But it boggles me that my LittleMark2 is being marketed as 500w in 4ohms but cannot perform at the same volumelevel as my TC RH450 (450w in 4ohms). Why the hate for TC but none for Markbass? My SM-900 didn't play louder than either of my TC heads. Where's the hate about SWR?
Bear in mind that i like (liked) all my amps (except the QSC) for their tone AND the volume(i needed 'em for).
But i cannot understand why there's so many haters about TC? We've been lied before; we've been lied to in the present and we will be lied to in the future. That's why i choose only based upon MY ears and what they are telling me! Try it and stop being a hater;-)
This isn't aimed at any one and it only expresses MY opinion. You are entirely free to form your own opinion and vent it!
Peace...
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Probably. If they do have a minimum impedance of 7 ohms then three would have a minimum of 2.3 ohms, and if it's proven OK with that then fine. Three cabs with a minimum impedance of 5 ohms each would be 1.7 ohms total, and might be a problem. Of course they could just call them 10 ohm cabs, but then there would be 'I want to get all the watts out of my amp' issue.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
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You're just getting goofy here. The point of me pointing out that a MANUAL is not MARKETING is that if you're going to play the 'aw shucks guys, it's just the rascally marketing department playing fast and loose' card, you better be sure its just marketing, and not the company line...since Manuals are usually an offspring of a technical writer and the engineering staff.
But in fact, in this case, it was represented as such in the technical documents for the product, meaning its not just the loud-ties in marketing shining on about stuff, but was an across the board decision.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,350
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
People wouldn't know what to do with 10ohm cabs...bass players have been presented with three (and sometimes 4 if you want to count 16ohm cabs) for about half a century. All the amps are discussed in terms of 2/4/8. Heads would explode.
Here's how I see things:
Power is power.
Loudness is loudness.
Power is not loudness.
Power plus effects plus signal is loudness.
Most engineers could probably agree on an approximate yet sufficiently useful power rating based on the output voltage limit of an amplifier. The way that most amps work, voltage is the thing that, once you run out of it, you don't get any more. It's easy to measure the output voltage, and hard to lie about it.
Power and loudness are apples and oranges. We already know this. Engineers know this. Players know this. Amp makers know this. Everybody believes that their amp is louder than the rated power. This is something that TB'ers have claimed about amps ranging from the SVT to the MB200. If power is a measure of the manufacturer's opinion of loudness, then every other bass amp would have a higher power rating too. Is the MB200 a 380-Watt amp?
Within the output clipping voltage envelope of an amplifier, it's possible to increase loudness using effects such as soft clipping, compression, and voicing. These effects can be designed into any portion of the signal chain, including the preamp in an active bass. Most bass amps are designed to achieve a loudness "edge" above and beyond their power rating. That's because, power aside, it's also what makes amps sound good. The use of compression to do this in bass amps is more than 30 years old.
Thus, your preamp, bass, or playing style, can make your amp louder. Do those things make your amp more powerful? That seems absurd to me. If a gear maker were to say: "This bass will make your amp twice as powerful," they would be laughed out of town.
I know how powerful my amps are, and how loud they are. I don't have a problem coping with this information.
Power is power.
Loudness is loudness.
Power is not loudness.
Power plus effects plus signal is loudness.
Most engineers could probably agree on an approximate yet sufficiently useful power rating based on the output voltage limit of an amplifier. The way that most amps work, voltage is the thing that, once you run out of it, you don't get any more. It's easy to measure the output voltage, and hard to lie about it.
Power and loudness are apples and oranges. We already know this. Engineers know this. Players know this. Amp makers know this. Everybody believes that their amp is louder than the rated power. This is something that TB'ers have claimed about amps ranging from the SVT to the MB200. If power is a measure of the manufacturer's opinion of loudness, then every other bass amp would have a higher power rating too. Is the MB200 a 380-Watt amp?
Within the output clipping voltage envelope of an amplifier, it's possible to increase loudness using effects such as soft clipping, compression, and voicing. These effects can be designed into any portion of the signal chain, including the preamp in an active bass. Most bass amps are designed to achieve a loudness "edge" above and beyond their power rating. That's because, power aside, it's also what makes amps sound good. The use of compression to do this in bass amps is more than 30 years old.
Thus, your preamp, bass, or playing style, can make your amp louder. Do those things make your amp more powerful? That seems absurd to me. If a gear maker were to say: "This bass will make your amp twice as powerful," they would be laughed out of town.
I know how powerful my amps are, and how loud they are. I don't have a problem coping with this information.
Hopefully Tom will pop in with an explanation of this measured impedance number. An average doesn't tell you anything. If that is DCR / .7...that would tell you these things should be labeled 11-12ohm cabs and would make the use of 3 of them understandable to the average, not so techy player.
Where are you getting the idea that my meaning is "'aw shucks guys, it's just the rascally marketing department playing fast and loose???" That's reading quite a bit into something that's not there.
What I have said is that my own reaction to TCE's decision to lie is not anger, but disappointment. That disappointment is at the the "marketing decision" to do that, and that extends to the decision to make those same misrepresentations wherever else they were made: manuals, articles, trade shows, youtube videos, etc.
I don't understand why they made the decision to do that. I don't believe it was necessary, and never have I said, hinted, suggested that it was justifiable. That the performance of the amp does nothing to mitigate someone else's reaction to being lied to is fully up to them. I have not argued that anyone should feel the same way I do.
I think the TC stuff sounds okay - but rating any piece of gear based on "perceived" power is pure BS AND it's bad business.
I've actually thought about shopping for a TC when I'm ready for a new amp - but they'll have to lower the price down to what products in their actual power class cost.
I've actually thought about shopping for a TC when I'm ready for a new amp - but they'll have to lower the price down to what products in their actual power class cost.
No I disagree with this - and this is the heart of the debate. When I was shopping for an amp I was concerned that the rh450 - being (cough) a 450 watt amp - was ONLY 450 watts. My other choices were 500, 600 & 700 watts. What got me over the line was the many assurances on this forum that it IS in fact a very loud amp. Even knowing that loudness =/= power there's not a hope in hell I'd have bought the RH450 online without hearing it had I known it was 230 watts.
To the average non-TB reading player out there - a 236 watt amp is simply not going to make it on to the shopping list.
Sansamp tried honesty when they released their 300 watt "VT Bass 1969" SVT copy. Hands up who's bought one of those??!
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