I picture going all Samuel L. - Time to Kill on them..."I hope they burn in hell!!!"
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TC Electronics RH450 Quasi-Wattage Ratings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jarrett
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I picture going all Samuel L. - Time to Kill on them..."I hope they burn in hell!!!"
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Ken, I don't buy many amps. Buying decisions for me are are a tramatic experience, I simply don't like to part with my money. Unlike some other here, I don't have the resources or the inclination to buy every amp on the market to giver a go for a few months than flip it... heck, the last amp I bought was a brand new Sunn in the early 80's LOL
My expectation regarding the output of the 450 was that, like my Sunn amp, I won't have to buy another for quite some time, based on the specs provided to me. I was expecting that regardless of the situation, my 450 watt amp would be able to get me through it... now I have concerns that should I need more than I do at this time, my amp will let me down.
So regardless of whether you get it or not, many of us feel like we've been dooped and it's very hard to quantify a "feeling", unless of course you happen to be TCE.
Fishheadjoe
My expectation regarding the output of the 450 was that, like my Sunn amp, I won't have to buy another for quite some time, based on the specs provided to me. I was expecting that regardless of the situation, my 450 watt amp would be able to get me through it... now I have concerns that should I need more than I do at this time, my amp will let me down.
So regardless of whether you get it or not, many of us feel like we've been dooped and it's very hard to quantify a "feeling", unless of course you happen to be TCE.
Fishheadjoe
+1 to your general feelings. I again get that.
Totally -1 to your specific 'feeling' that the amp might 'let you down'. There is literally no information that the RH450 has let ANY OWNER down on the thousands of posts on this site, when you define 'letting down' as 'not putting out the volume you would expect from an amp in the 400-600 watt class of integrated bass heads. Not ONE
This amp stays remarkably even through its entire volume range. So, if you dig it on a soft gig, you will most likely gig it on a loud one. It runs cool as heck, and seems to be built like a tank (very few problem posts over the last couple of years).
PS My guess is, if the few guys who actually own the amp and are upset by this email Uffe, they will most likely allow you to return the amp for a refund. My guess is, there would only be a handful of people who would go to this extreme. Worth a try for those who, for whatever reason, feel that they have been 'wattage violated'.
Totally guessing here, but worth a try for the handful of actual owners who seem extremely upset by this
Totally guessing here, but worth a try for the handful of actual owners who seem extremely upset by this
I went to buy some sugar. It was a bit pricey, but the brand said it was the best for it's class. I find out later that it's not really sugar, but splenda. Oh well, it still tastes great, and I paid extra for what I thought was superior sugar. But I got splenda. Well, why didn't they say it was splenda to begin with?
Ethics.
Marketing.
Lies.
Stop trying to poke holes in the analogies and just try to understand them. The majority love the sound, but were still somewhat 'duped'. Considering the price point, it would have been better to tell bassists they were paying more because of the technology rather than the power - that would have been more honest. One needs something tangible as a comparison - I loved the sound of the Shuttle 6.0, does it have same wattage? If I liked the sound of both amps - and then I considered, how would each of them fare in large venues - my line of thinking is this: if it has enough wattage, I can play in a 1000 seat venue. I rely on the spec to tell me this - I can't rely on testing an amp at full volume in a store or buying one online after I've demoed one in a store. Thinking, oh this has 450 watts - give or take a few with distortion etc - that is ample. Imagine if TC Electronic had a 200W amp - and it turned out to be 80W - yeah, no one is really complaining that it sounds loud - just don't lie about something that's so commonly used to sway a purchase one way or another. I was THIS close to buying a Genz Benz. Should I worry about the resale value of the RH450 or the RS212? I wouldn't be able to state this amp pushes 450W in my sale description - because, it doesn't.
Why didn't they just say this in the first place? Was it so they could charge a higher price? I have no idea. I would hope their PR staff is working overtime to come up with a viable solution to customers who feel slighted. If I were to sell my rig, it would NOT be because of the way it sounds (it sounds fantastic), it would be because the company isn't ethical.
Ethics.
Marketing.
Lies.
Stop trying to poke holes in the analogies and just try to understand them. The majority love the sound, but were still somewhat 'duped'. Considering the price point, it would have been better to tell bassists they were paying more because of the technology rather than the power - that would have been more honest. One needs something tangible as a comparison - I loved the sound of the Shuttle 6.0, does it have same wattage? If I liked the sound of both amps - and then I considered, how would each of them fare in large venues - my line of thinking is this: if it has enough wattage, I can play in a 1000 seat venue. I rely on the spec to tell me this - I can't rely on testing an amp at full volume in a store or buying one online after I've demoed one in a store. Thinking, oh this has 450 watts - give or take a few with distortion etc - that is ample. Imagine if TC Electronic had a 200W amp - and it turned out to be 80W - yeah, no one is really complaining that it sounds loud - just don't lie about something that's so commonly used to sway a purchase one way or another. I was THIS close to buying a Genz Benz. Should I worry about the resale value of the RH450 or the RS212? I wouldn't be able to state this amp pushes 450W in my sale description - because, it doesn't.
Why didn't they just say this in the first place? Was it so they could charge a higher price? I have no idea. I would hope their PR staff is working overtime to come up with a viable solution to customers who feel slighted. If I were to sell my rig, it would NOT be because of the way it sounds (it sounds fantastic), it would be because the company isn't ethical.
Don't get the price point thing either. Massively good adjustable muti-band compressor, first class tuner, decent tube emulation/overdrive circuit, and FOUR bands of semi-parametric EQ, THREE presets, mute button.... and again, based on even your comments, performance that some feel is 'best in class' in the 400-600 watt micro amp category (it is closer in performance to the Shuttle 9 than the 6 IME).
The discounted price of mine was about $100 over what I paid for my F500.
Another curiosity question:
What type of rationale do you attribute TCE's failure to appreciate a lot of the stronger sentiment? Have you speculated on that?
That's what has me scratching my head. I don't get it. My sense is that these are generally "good guys" (technically sharp and personally invested in quality) and across the spectrum of possible motives I am guessing at something in the range of well-intentioned but very poor decision making rather than something intended as aimed at screwing people over.
Saying that they understand people's reactions to be lied to would be a start.
Which they stressed as much as the power output....
There's nothing to 'get'. Being duped is being duped. Saying something is 'XYZ' when it's not 'XYZ' at all.
That's it. So yeah, what's the email address. Is it available on the TC site? Can't find anything there regarding contacting Uffe.
So what of the Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0
Is it really 600 watts? Should I care? Is it really more like 357W?
There's nothing to 'get'. Being duped is being duped. Saying something is 'XYZ' when it's not 'XYZ' at all.
That's it. So yeah, what's the email address. Is it available on the TC site? Can't find anything there regarding contacting Uffe.
So what of the Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0
Is it really 600 watts? Should I care? Is it really more like 357W?
Wow, this one is moving fast. Ah well, I'm gonna post the response to one from 4 pages ago anyway.
Yep. And if that weren't a useful thing to do, those specs probably wouldn't be given as standard measurements for all manner of amplifiers and speakers.
I am.
Mmm hmm.
Righto.
Nope, it doesn't. But that's just one gig, and one appropriate volume level. Not many folks exclusively play a single venue.
What happens at the next gig, where an appropriate level is achieved at 4:00 on the RH450, and 1:00 on the RH750? And the one after that, with the RH450 pegged at 5:00, while the RH750 cruises along at 2 or 3:00? And then one that needs 4:00 on the RH750 and you just plain can't get what you need (and thought you had) from the RH450?
The limit on the sound you can put out will be the speakers. Some may prefer to get all they can out of them without pushing the amp to its limits. So what if the maximum result of the pairing isn't needed most of the time... sometimes it might be. Or maybe someday it could be. All reasons to care whether or not it is actually available as promised, and that it can be delivered if ever called upon.
THAT was the main point of the car analogy.
It is stupid, because no car manufacturer will give you horsepower and torque ratings (something that can be measured) via some kind of judgement based on top speed. Which can also be measured, but by no means tells you everything about how the vehicle performs.
You're right, horsepower and torque alone won't tell you anything about top speed or quickness. And fudged power values based on a single attribute (top speed) will tell you nothing about potential quickness. Whereas proper values, in concert with other proper values, can at least give you a rough idea. A drag race is all about quickness, top speed means nothing.
I'll grant that this is a better analogy.
My reaction would be the exact opposite. I'd be royally pissed that I'm only packing a bone stock 218hp when I paid for 450. (Squeezing that kind of power into that little car would cost quite a pretty penny.) So what if it beat a Ferrari, what's so special about that? The Lotus absolutely could beat that car, even with 218hp. (Though there's no way you'd do it by 2 seconds unless the driver was asleep. In which case pretty much any other decent car at the track would have done the same.)
If I paid for 450hp in that car, I'd fully expect it to be capable of competing for pink slips with F40s, Murcielagos, and McLarens. (If one ever actually shows up at the track.) And 218hp won't cut it for that, even if it felt like 450hp to you, and even if the top speed ends up the same due to gearing or whatever.
I want the full 450hp it said it was. And if that makes it feel like 900hp? Well, that's just awesome. Sign me up.
Yep. And if that weren't a useful thing to do, those specs probably wouldn't be given as standard measurements for all manner of amplifiers and speakers.
I am.
Mmm hmm.
Righto.
Nope, it doesn't. But that's just one gig, and one appropriate volume level. Not many folks exclusively play a single venue.
What happens at the next gig, where an appropriate level is achieved at 4:00 on the RH450, and 1:00 on the RH750? And the one after that, with the RH450 pegged at 5:00, while the RH750 cruises along at 2 or 3:00? And then one that needs 4:00 on the RH750 and you just plain can't get what you need (and thought you had) from the RH450?
The limit on the sound you can put out will be the speakers. Some may prefer to get all they can out of them without pushing the amp to its limits. So what if the maximum result of the pairing isn't needed most of the time... sometimes it might be. Or maybe someday it could be. All reasons to care whether or not it is actually available as promised, and that it can be delivered if ever called upon.
THAT was the main point of the car analogy.
It is stupid, because no car manufacturer will give you horsepower and torque ratings (something that can be measured) via some kind of judgement based on top speed. Which can also be measured, but by no means tells you everything about how the vehicle performs.
You're right, horsepower and torque alone won't tell you anything about top speed or quickness. And fudged power values based on a single attribute (top speed) will tell you nothing about potential quickness. Whereas proper values, in concert with other proper values, can at least give you a rough idea. A drag race is all about quickness, top speed means nothing.
I'll grant that this is a better analogy.
My reaction would be the exact opposite. I'd be royally pissed that I'm only packing a bone stock 218hp when I paid for 450. (Squeezing that kind of power into that little car would cost quite a pretty penny.) So what if it beat a Ferrari, what's so special about that? The Lotus absolutely could beat that car, even with 218hp. (Though there's no way you'd do it by 2 seconds unless the driver was asleep. In which case pretty much any other decent car at the track would have done the same.)
If I paid for 450hp in that car, I'd fully expect it to be capable of competing for pink slips with F40s, Murcielagos, and McLarens. (If one ever actually shows up at the track.) And 218hp won't cut it for that, even if it felt like 450hp to you, and even if the top speed ends up the same due to gearing or whatever.
I want the full 450hp it said it was. And if that makes it feel like 900hp? Well, that's just awesome. Sign me up.
I think we'll have to just declare inability to understand each other and move on...
bongomania
Commercial User
People were comparing the sound and feel of an amp, that specifically uses pre-programmed compression and EQ to boost perceived loudness, against amps that were not designed that way. Also, people in general have a bad habit of comparing amp loudness with similar knob settings, even though this nearly always is the wrong approach. I have no way of knowing to what extent that happened in the threads you're talking about, and you don't either--but it is extremely common.
Additionally, your earlier description of a big difference between the "clean" loudness of the TC versus the "dirty" loudness of the clipping SVT points out another common human-perception problem: people think if they hear the nuances of their playing clearly and articulately, that they are hearing something clean and uncompressed. This is usually quite wrong. In fact it's a hallmark of good-quality compression that we don't hear it happening as such, all we hear is that everything sounds "better", "more present", "more clear", and often louder.
My point is that 99.9% of people liking what they hear has jack squat to do with the fact that TC's marketing includes a false statement--and that if all of those posters knew how their gear worked on a technical level, they'd have been able to make a better assessment of what they were actually getting from the amp. That's the difference between "quasi watts" and real measured watts--and again, you can make any amp sound twice as loud as it currently does by using technology similar to the pre-programmed model of the TC.
Where did I make that equation? I didn't, but never mind, I'll bite anyway: the Accuswitch performed "a function" that had "a result". It did! It just wasn't the function or result that was claimed. Same is true here: the TC amp performs a function that has a result, and lots of people like the way it sounds--but it does NOT perform the claimed function, and you can only argue it has the claimed result if you deliberately ignore the fact that any other amp can be made to perform similarly, if you know how.
Again I ask: is it OK if power amp manufacturers tomorrow change all of their ad copy to show double the current wattage ratings? If not, why not?
Whoa... straw man alert... so now it is the users fault if they think the amp performs at the level promised
Seriously though, many of us have done these comparisons, including myself, with little regard to the position of the knob.The RH450 will sound cleaner at louder volumes than the SVT IMO and IME, probably pretty close to the difference between a 300 watt and 450 watt amp.
You didn't. Sorry if I implied that. I was speaking to my feeling that the casual ready might somehow take away that the RH450 doesn't perform as promised on the gig, which of course, from thousands of posts prior to the review (and even the actual subjective review itself) shows to be false.
As long as the 600 watt amp that is now quoted as having 1200 watts performs similar to other 1200 watt amps, why would I care. Zero issue, and my guess is that the circuitry required to make that happen probably costs more than actually adding the watts!
Seriously, I get why some people are upset, or have some sort of 'moral indignation' regarding that marketing spec on the wattage. However, given the performance of the amp, it again is a strange situation of, in my opinion, a product exceding expectations set by even the inflated spec! That is one for the Harvard Business Review!
Rickett Customs
Commercial User
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