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TC Electronics RH450 Quasi-Wattage Ratings Discussion Thread

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Because higher impedance = less wattage = less SPL.

Also, if you hook up two of those 12 (8) ohm cabs to a tube amp's 4 ohm tap you might get an exciting surprise :)

* note, this thing only gets 45mpg when you never drive faster than 23.6mph. you can just keep going 23.6mph forever, but you can't go 45 if you ned to. :P

Again, as you've pointed out many times, the car analogy doesn't really work, especially this one.

Also, slightly higher impedance results in slightly less wattage. Within a couple of 'nominal ohms', within the range of error in human hearing for detecting volume differences. I would think the shape of the impedance curve would have MUCH more impact than the 'nominal impedance' summary measure.

Your tube amp example might hold some merit, although since very few cabs (as far as I know) exactly hit their published nominal impedance, not sure if the 5ohm versus 4ohm example you give would have much impact, or quite frankly, be that much different from a variety of other cabs.
 
Why would you care if the nominal impedance of a cab is a bit higher?

And, your example of the mpg doesn't work at all, since, to virtually everyone's ears, the TC car 'actually gets 45mpg;).

Again, if you have a pure ethical issue regarding this, then I guess I understand, and you would also pretty much have to sell any bass cab you own.

The better example would be 'they said the car would get 45mpg due to the new 'super' fragistat coupler. Now I find out the car only has a 'regular' fragistat coupler. Damn... I'm pissed, even though the car gets 45 miles per gallon:D

Again, I get the consternation in general with a 'pure accuracy' argument, but don't think, again, that the TC 'underperforms' in any way given its published ratings and tonal description/promise.

It's all about the ethics. Buying a MIA Jazz, only to find out the parts were made here, but it was 'assembled' elsewhere - technically, it's still made in the USA.

Well, then don't tell me it's made in the USA if it's not. Does it mean the quality suffers? Not necessarily. If I'm going to spend extra cash for an MIA, it better be MIA. All analogies aside, it is purely an ethics issue. It doesn't sit well with me at all.
 
This is possibly the most silly discussion I have ever read on TalkBass.

I have a RH450 that I'm very happy with. Is it loud enough for my needs? Yes. Then I honestly don't give a crap about wattage.

In the incredilong RH450 review and appreciation threads allmost every post says "this baby is more than loud enough, wow this amp is loud", and when the technerds analyze it with their wattometers suddenly the amp sucks and TC should be burned, stoned and cruzified?

Before the TC I had an EBS TD650, and I've never had to push either amps master to max, both are loud enough for those of us who dont do arenasize shows. Outdoor gig, largeish stage, 3k in the crowd, no problem.

If it had the farty output of an old Carlsbro Cobra-combo from the 80ies I would understand the drama, but now I honestly don't understand this whole discussion?

Just my few nickels, now keep on yabbing about nonsense.
 
A bald-faced lie about a non-subjective measurement should not be diminished as being merely a "pure accuracy issue".

As someone else mentioned earlier, what if the car ran even faster and better if it really had the claimed HP? What if the TC amp ran even louder and cleaner if it really had the claimed wattage?

Again, it does run 'louder and within its design goals of 'clean and warm' than most heads with 'tested higher wattage measured in a vacuum'.

Have you played this head? Again, as far as I know, NOT ONE comment about 'this head doesn't seem like 450 watts' prior to the number being posted.


What if, for example, Genz would have used a true 900 watt at 1% THD power module in my beloved Streamliner? It would surely sound different, but probably not better (probably not as good).

Again, if you are judging on pure accuracy of spec's, TC loses. If you are judging on how the expectation of performance was met by VIRTUALLY EVERY CUSTOMER (even some of those who are now railing against TC, which of course is their right), then TC comes through IMO with flying colors.

More and more these days, as I'm learing with my experience with the Genz heads and now TC, as the Bowlus has in his sig' 'wattage isn't everything', and I'm beginning to see that 'pure wattage measurement' is becoming 'almost nothing':D

Again, round and round we go. My only point is that there is virtually NO ONE that was disappointed in this head prior to one of their friends saying that 'they think their girlfriend is ugly':p
 
It's all about the ethics. Buying a MIA Jazz, only to find out the parts were made here, but it was 'assembled' elsewhere - technically, it's still made in the USA.

Well, then don't tell me it's made in the USA if it's not. Does it mean the quality suffers? Not necessarily. If I'm going to spend extra cash for an MIA, it better be MIA. All analogies aside, it is purely an ethics issue. It doesn't sit well with me at all.

Again, for you, if it is 'all about ethics', that makes sense (although I personally don't care). However, your mpg example had more to do with performance, which has little to do with this topic. That was all I was trying to clear up.
 
I think a lot of the self-proclaimed scientists on both sides of the argument are clouding the issue here, as are the apologists.

Here, as I see it, are the facts:

1) TC published a rating for an amplifier that was beyond optimistic, broaching fraudulent, rather than post the actual rating as tested by somewhat uniform methods throughout the industry, as would affect sales and pricing.

2) This is somewhat common practice in MI, although there are many exceptions to the rule as well as many who go so far as to double or triple the actual rated output of their products on their marketing... using phony figures, murky science, "proprietary" testing methods designed to produce more marketable results or justify inflating the results of more standardized testing

3) The ubiquity of this sort of misleading and dishonest practice does not excuse its use, and manufacturers who engage in the practice take great pains to hide or otherwise obfuscate both their testing methods, and the degree to which marketing overrides engineering precisely because it is a "bad thing" that they dont want their customers privy to, as would affect sales and pricing, given the maker's interpretation of what the market will bear.

4) Right or wrong, strict adherence to Mirriam-Webster's definitions of technical terminology and that terminology's appropriate usage in common practice and how it relates to real world experience put completely aside.... output wattage has been the benchmark by which end-users make pre-purchase conclusions on a given amplifier's overall volume and *loudness* capabilities and, more recently, it's ability to reproduce extended low frequency at a certain volume given the use of an appropriate enclosure. In most cases, these conclusions are made bearing in mind the size of the speaker enclosure the end user intends to mate to the amplifier.....so, being that this is the number the end-user gets the most use out of in making these very important conclusions, the industry has responded by making that it's most visible published spec, as will affect sales and pricing. "loudness", "Perceived Loudness", "Headroom" etc all obfuscate to some degree, what it is the end-user is most interested in.... how loud will this amplifier get?. The market demands this information in making a decision to purchase, and the industry has responded.

5) Given the same signal and the same enclosure, and given a variety of different situations apples to apples (same room size, acoustics, band setting, equalization etc.) a 223 watt amplifier will not be able to perform accurately to the same *overall volume (for lack of a better general term as relates to objective listeners) as a 450 watt amplifier with all other factors being equal, although in some cases the differential will be negligible. No matter what way you spin it... a given preamp circuit, with a given bass and enclosure, in a given room..... a 500 watt amplifier will exhibit a number of different and varying but always audible symptoms of having reached one or more of it's mechanical limits at a much lower *overall volume than a 1000 watt amplifier. Any attempts by anyone, manufacturer or player to obfuscate, apologize for or explain away this differential has some strong motivation for doing so not related to the truth.

6) That being said, many amps of similar ratings sound *louder or seem to have more *headroom than others, and this has everything to do with signal reproduction and fidelity, inherent equalization, and how the human ear interprets sound. That is why some cabinets of equal configuration and capacity often sound *louder than others, on account of engineered or more often inherent emphasis on certain frequency ranges.

7) Many people will buy whatever you want to sell them, if you sell it colorfully enough. If the TC unit being discussed sounds good to you, and is loud enough to support your needs given your sound, your enclosures and in the rooms you play, and you can afford it.... buy it. The Wattage Spec approaches zero meaning for you. It could be rated at 100 watts or 1000, and it will still be good enough for you. HOWEVER.... many manufacturers feel that in order to attract you to the product to begin with as opposed to watching you make the "it works for me" decision on a competitors product, they need to inflate published specs to a point more in line with competing products in the same price range, taking into account other features offered by the product. Inflating the number on paper is a great deal less expensive then engineering the amp to actually perform at that number.... and achieving a better profit margin was and is the source of all this issue to begin with.

8) TC is not the first to do this, not even the first to be called out on it... although they may wear the current crown of to what degree they have lied and inflated their numbers. The also may wear the current crown for the most preposterous excuse. Marketing is marketing..... ways and means by which makers entice you to their product. Sadly, wattage specs are, and will likely remain, at the determination of the Marketing side of the business, not the engineering side. So, as is always the case.... let the buyer beware, and let your ears be your judge.... ignore all the colorful language and people arguing semantics, as clouds the issue.

Mods, feel free to sticky this post, and lavish praise on its author........:D:D:D:D:D
 
Where do people (including Ken) keep coming up with this imaginary thing about complaints about how the amp sounds?

Has there been even ONE complaint about how the amp sounds, in this thread? Have ANY of the people criticizing TC's lies said anything about the amp not sounding good, or being "loud enough" for moderate gigs?

Since the answer is "no", then why do some people insist on making that the focus of the discussion?
 
I think a lot of people have been unhappy with the voicing and the squashed sound. The compressed sound is a complaint of note.

Pablo -- the assumption that most companies lie about the output ratings of their amps is incorrect. Most of them that I've seen measured are within 10%.
 
Again, as you've pointed out many times, the car analogy doesn't really work, especially this one.

Also, slightly higher impedance results in slightly less wattage. Within a couple of 'nominal ohms', within the range of error in human hearing for detecting volume differences. I would think the shape of the impedance curve would have MUCH more impact than the 'nominal impedance' summary measure.

Your tube amp example might hold some merit, although since very few cabs (as far as I know) exactly hit their published nominal impedance, not sure if the 5ohm versus 4ohm example you give would have much impact, or quite frankly, be that much different from a variety of other cabs.

The nominal ohm rating of most 8 ohm speakers is 6 ohms.

The nominal ohm rating of a 16 ohm cab is 12 ohms (typically).

The TC cabs come in at 11 ohms or so.

The difference between a 16 ohm cab and an 8 ohm cab with the same wattage is CLEARLY AUDIBLE BY ANYONE.

Key summary: You are wrong in every way. I can detect differences of a decibel with ease, the difference here is going to be close to 3 decibels.

Regarding tube amps: It's even worse because the typical nominal impedance of an 8 ohm cab is typically 6 ohms which makes life easier for a tube amp. the higher the impedance the worse it is for a tube amp in most cases.
 
Where do people keep coming up with this imaginary thing about complaints about how the amp sounds?

Has there been even ONE complaint about how the amp sounds, in this thread? Have ANY of the people criticizing TC's lies said anything about the amp not sounding good, or being "loud enough" for moderate gigs?

Since the answer is "no", then why do some people insist on making that the focus of the discussion?

Because for the working bassist, that is all that matters, and for most, they made a MUCH better buying decision based on the published spec than the 'accurate spec', since it would be almost impossible for the vast majority of bassists to understand the circuitry that allows this amazing amp (regardless of wattage) to sound like it does.

If the specs we are discussing have no bearing on how the amp performs for the customer, why would you think that isn't a HUGE point.

If this point wasn't brought up, then this might be thought of by some readers as an 'Accuswitch situation'.... i.e., misleading information about something that literally didn't work.

Pretty simple, and again, I respect (although don't quite get) those who say 'I still love the amp, but am pissed':D

Again, it is fine to make it known that the amp performs its magic due to lots of circuity, etc. versus full watts. However, we don't want the casual reader to somehow think that this amp doesn't actually perform as advertised. Even the guys who own the amp and are pissed post that it does. That is a KEY point for me.
 
Ken, I was a blind man when dating the RH450. Your girlfriend analogy hit home with me...
When I checked out the RH450, I was not able to play the amp at performance level. I was given an opportunity to play with it and assess it tonal qualities and the various bells and whistles, but was not given an opportunity to crank it and see what i could do... so, my only recourse was to believe that the published specs were correct and honest. They were not.
I can't really say that I would have even considered the amp, had I known then, what I know now. I was not given an opportuntity to make that decision, it was taken away from me by product marketing. Who knows what I may have purchased given correct information.
That is the crux of my frustration. I thought I bought "A" and I ended up buying "B".
Fishheadjoe
 
The nominal ohm rating of most 8 ohm speakers is 6 ohms.

The nominal ohm rating of a 16 ohm cab is 12 ohms (typically).

The TC cabs come in at 11 ohms or so.

The difference between a 16 ohm cab and an 8 ohm cab with the same wattage is CLEARLY AUDIBLE BY ANYONE.

Key summary: You are wrong in every way. I can detect differences of a decibel with ease, the difference here is going to be close to 3 decibels.

Using the same head (actually many heads), the RS210 was one of the loudest 210 cabs I've owned/heard, and still had a nice full low end and some pretty impressive mechanical specs (i.e., the 'non farting thing'). All things are NEVER equal, and just like with watts, looking at one number in a vacuum will lead to some very surprising results (as you post over and over again on other threads):hiding:
 
First of all the ammount of wattage is a marketing thing. Be honest: Does anybody buy a 250-watt bassamp at the known price?

On the other hand I know, that all those switch-mode-amps dont deliver the number of watts sayed by the manual. My Promethean 5110, connected to 2 Peavey TVX 410 in 8 Ohms, does not seem as loud as my Marshall MB 4410 - using the attached cab and a 4 Ohm TVX 410 to get the 2 Ohms the amp needs to deliver 450 Watt.

Look at the Ampeg SVT 3 Pro: Swichmode-powersuply and the weakest 450 Watt I ever heard.... Even though Ampeg normaly means loud and punchy.
 
Ken, I was a blind man when dating the RH450. Your girlfriend analogy hit home with me...
When I checked out the RH450, I was not able to play the amp at performance level. I was given an opportunity to play with it and assess it tonal qualities and the various bells and whistles, but was not given an opportunity to crank it and see what i could do... so, my only recourse was to believe that the published specs were correct and honest. They were not.
I can't really say that I would have even considered the amp, had I known then, what I know now. I was not given an opportuntity to make that decision, it was taken away from me by product marketing. Who knows what I may have purchased given correct information.
That is the crux of my frustration. I thought I bought "A" and I ended up buying "B".
Fishheadjoe

But again, when you got it home and compared it to the Shuttle 6, the LMII, the F1, etc., etc., what did YOU think. Did you say, damn, this amp is not in that class, or like most of us (maybe all of us!), did you think 'that is the loudest, fattest 450 watts I've ever heard in my life.;).

To your point, what a shame if you wouldn't have considered the amp if they had put a wattage figure in their specs that resulted in you thinking the amp would not perform as it does, placing too much emphasis on one spec figure without understanding the sophisticated power management, etc. that makes this amp perform as it does.
 
Using the same head (actually many heads), the RS210 was one of the loudest 210 cabs own, and still had a nice full low end and some pretty impressive mechanical specs (i.e., the 'non farting thing'). All things are NEVER equal, and just like with watts, looking at one number in a vacuum will lead to some very surprising results (as you post over and over again on other threads):hiding:

I'm not looking at watts in a vaccuum,

All things being equal (sensitivity, input wattage and input signal), a 16 ohm cabinet will be much quieter than an 8 ohm cabinet, and will be much more likely to burn out a tube amp when plugged into the wrong taps.

It probably appears to have nice mechanical specs because you're hitting it with half as much wattage as you think you are. :)
 
Interesting choice of words, Ken, "perform as advertised"... It only "performs as advertised" if you agree that calling it 450 watts because to them it "sounds like" 450 watts is truth in advertising.

The original all-tube SVT has already been called forth as an example of a nominally 300 W amp that can "sound like" more than twice that wattage, if you drive it into clipping (compression) and don't scoop the mids too much. I can take a ruler-flat solid state power amp and make it sound like double its wattage too, by using compression and EQ.

Does that make it OK for every power amp manufacturer to double the power rating they advertise?
 
I think a lot of people have been unhappy with the voicing and the squashed sound. The compressed sound is a complaint of note.

Most people view that chewy, fat, tubey 'givey' sort of tone and feel as the primary selling point of the amp, and love it. Again, that tone is described in detail in the marketing material of the amp, and the amp delivers on that tone.
 
Most people view that chewy, fat, tubey 'givey' sort of tone and feel as the primary selling point of the amp, and love it. Again, that tone is described in detail in the marketing material of the amp, and the amp delivers on that tone.

If you use the same straw man in every post, I guess that makes it relevant...


....right?
 
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