TC Electronics RH450 Quasi-Wattage Ratings Discussion Thread

[BurningSkies]

Haha, I totally agree. Storm in a teacup. If you HAVE an issue with the loudness factor (on a gig) then I understand, but no one has!

Back to 'but it sounds like 450 to me!' is it?

That's not this debate.

 

[Session1969]

My appologies in advance for the sidetrack.



Obviously our ears are different, as is the equipment we've used. But my experience doesn't doesn't match with up yours.

I have cabs loaded with ceramic drivers and cabs with neo drivers. (And my fEARfuls have one of each type.)
Each of my cabs sounds the same whether I'm driving it with the class H power stage of my G-K or using the post EQ DI from the G-K into my class D power amp.

/Sidetrack

Thats cool. So the GK has a class H power supply ? I had one and didn't know that. My 1001 was awesome. I went from that to a rbi/ca9 setup and probably should've just went to different cabs in retrospect. Nor have I played through Fearfuls. No worries , I've found that I'm corrected quite often on TB and I appreciate it. Apologies for getting off track as well.

 

[Lonesomedave]

I couldn't agree more. He will get my business.

Haha, I totally agree. Storm in a teacup. If you HAVE an issue with the loudness factor (on a gig) then I understand, but no one has!

so, you think it's no big deal that adivin, who probably paid @1000.00 for this amp and is now selling will get far less for it than he might have, because HE (unlike TCE) is being honest and telling people the true, rated wattage?

how very nice. no problem, adivin, that's YOUR problem. dumbass! you should have performed these tests yourself before you bought, instead of trusting the manufacturer!

it's all our fault for not owning the equipment bassgear mag has and testing everything ourselves before we buy. and anyway, it sounds good, and everybody else does it. so in conclusion adivin, i would say it is your own dumbass fault. next time, buy the testing equipment first and you won't have these problems!

/s/ Dave

 

[4-string]

There is a sucker born every day. Knock yourself out baby. I have some stuff I'd like to sell you.

So now I'm a sucker? See, that is exactly the issue I have with some of you; not only do you call people stupid, but your attempt at force feeding us your point of view like it was the Spanish Inquisition is annoying. Hundreds of car and diamond anologies won't change my mind.

Well, at least you actually own a TC head.

 

[BurningSkies]

So now I'm a sucker? See, that is exactly the issue I have with some of you; not only do you call people stupid, but your attempt at force feeding us your point of view like it was the Spanish Inquisition is annoying. Hundreds of car and diamond anologies won't change my mind.

Well, at least you actually own a TC head.

No one's force feeding anyone anything. It's a discussion. You're quite allowed to have whatever opinion you want.

Of course, it does kind of suck for TC RH450 owners (and possibly RH750) that expected to retain some of their 450w resale value, but then that started to drop the minute TC dropped the pricing by about 400 bucks...hrrrm.

 

[projectMalamute]

Thats cool. So the GK has a class H power supply ? I had one and didn't know that. My 1001 was awesome. I went from that to a rbi/ca9 setup and probably should've just went to different cabs in retrospect. Nor have I played through Fearfuls. No worries , I've found that I'm corrected quite often on TB and I appreciate it. Apologies for getting off track as well.

Class H is a type of output stage, not a type of power supply.

Your CA9 is also a class H amp.

 

[willsellout]

No one's force feeding anyone anything. It's a discussion. You're quite allowed to have whatever opinion you want.

Of course, it does kind of suck for TC RH450 owners (and possibly RH750) that expected to retain some of their 450w resale value, but then that started to drop the minute TC dropped the pricing by about 400 bucks...hrrrm.

Yeah that does suck. I feel for those folks who are getting caught up in this mess. And now you have people shopping for deals. IF you are selling, I'd expect some seriously frustrating lowball offers.

 

[Low Class]

Yeah that does suck. I feel for those folks who are getting caught up in this mess. And now you have people shopping for deals. IF you are selling, I'd expect some seriously frustrating lowball offers.

In today's used market a 236 watt amp is worth about $250. After owning a couple of RH450's I'd say that's about what they're worth.

 

[willsellout]

In today's used market a 236 watt amp is worth about $250. After owning a couple of RH450's I'd say that's about what they're worth.

I'd say that with the other items of interest in this particular amp, like the compressor, presets, and other neat features, that it's worth more than 250.00. I would be surprised to see a single Rh450 sell for that much. I think they will continue to hover around 400.00 used seeming as how nothing has changed but some numbers on paper. The amp still performs exactly as it did before the BGM article.

 

[Low Class]

The amp still performs exactly as it did before the BGM article.

Yes it does, like a jacked up 236 watt amp!

 

[willsellout]

Yes it does, like a jacked up 236 watt amp!

That everyone loved and raved about. Thats why i think the used prices may falter a little bit, but should stay fairly close to what they were before. It might take a little longer to sell them though, at least until we hear a bit more from TC on what they plan to do. It's still an unfortunate situation for those folks with these heads that are looking to get rid of them.

 

[Low Class]

That everyone loved and raved about. .

You obviously don't watch the classified board. I can not recall an amp that received so much hype, yet many people were flipping these things within days of receiving them. I'd be surprised if most people that bought one still have it. I have to give kudos to TC's marketing department, but I'll never trust this company again.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

So let me summarize the argument that has been presented in this thread as I understand it (It tends to shift and be somewhat circular, so it is sometimes confusing). The amp specs listed by TCE for their RH450 don’t match the tested power output test performed by BGM (236W instead of 450W). The assumption (and this is absolutely clear from the posts) is that a 236W amp could not possibly perform the same as a 450W amp. When TCE and many of the amps owners/users (and BGM) state that real world performance of the amp is at the same level, the presenters of the argument say performance is not the issue, lying and misrepresenting the amp’s specifications is the issue and actual performance of the amp is irrelevant (except the initial assumption of a 236W amp does not equal a 450w amp is based on amp performance). If amp performance had nothing to do with the stated power output versus actual measure power output (BGM standards – not industry standards – because the industry does not have a required set standards to follow yet), then the 236W and 450W numbers are pointless.
So, we are supposed to be upset because TCE gave power specifications that BGM says are inflated (but also states in a review that the amp performs at comparable levels with reference amps in that power rating). We are supposed to focus only on TCE’s data not being accurate (truthful) and not the issue of manufacturer’s lacking a set of industry standards to represent amp performance. (Really????) Yet, at least one protagonist in this thread stated that the importance of this thread is to send a message to amp manufacturers that false and misleading amp specs are not acceptable behavior. We now also include berating retail stores (not just TCE customers and non-upset people (fellow TBers) for not being passionately angry at TCE.

 

[BurningSkies]

So let me summarize the argument that has been presented in this thread as I understand it (It tends to shift and be somewhat circular, so it is sometimes confusing). The amp specs listed by TCE for their RH450 don’t match the tested power output test performed by BGM (236W instead of 450W). The assumption (and this is absolutely clear from the posts) is that a 236W amp could not possibly perform the same as a 450W amp. When TCE and many of the amps owners/users (and BGM) state that real world performance of the amp is at the same level, the presenters of the argument say performance is not the issue, lying and misrepresenting the amp’s specifications is the issue and actual performance of the amp is irrelevant (except the initial assumption of a 236W amp does not equal a 450w amp is based on amp performance). If amp performance had nothing to do with the stated power output versus actual measure power output (BGM standards – not industry standards – because the industry does not have a required set standards to follow yet), then the 236W and 450W numbers are pointless.
So, we are supposed to be upset because TCE gave power specifications that BGM says are inflated (but also states in a review that the amp performs at comparable levels with reference amps in that power rating). We are supposed to focus only on TCE’s data not being accurate (truthful) and not the issue of manufacturer’s lacking a set of industry standards to represent amp performance. (Really????) Yet, at least one protagonist in this thread stated that the importance of this thread is to send a message to amp manufacturers that false and misleading amp specs are not acceptable behavior. We now also include berating retail stores (not just TCE customers and non-upset people (fellow TBers) for not being passionately angry at TCE.

The piece you're missing is that the RH450's performance is based upon multiband compression, which to the casual listen, makes sound loud (in the same way that modern recorded music sounds loud because of compression applied in mastering). But of course, a 236w amp can only produce 236w., no matter how much you raise the compression level. So TC decided to report 'perceived wattage' in their specs instead of actual wattage and of course, did so without letting on that they were goofing the whole thing with made up numbers.

There is no such thing as a "sounds loud to me" scale when doing output measurements.

 

[willsellout]

You obviously don't watch the classified board. I can not recall an amp that received so much hype, yet many people were flipping these things within days of receiving them. I'd be surprised if most people that bought one still have it. I have to give kudos to TC's marketing department, but I'll never trust this company again.

You can say the very same thing about every other amp that's hit the market in the past 3 years.

 

[guy n. cognito]

He's also missing the part about those who have no dog in this hunt, yet still feel the need to criticize the opinions of those who do.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

The piece you're missing is that the RH450's performance is based upon multiband compression, which to the casual listen, makes sound loud (in the same way that modern recorded music sounds loud because of compression applied in mastering). But of course, a 236w amp can only produce 236w., no matter how much you raise the compression level. So TC decided to report 'perceived wattage' in their specs instead of actual wattage and of course, did so without letting on that they were goofing the whole thing with made up numbers.

There is no such thing as a "sounds loud to me" scale when doing output measurements.

You just demonstrated my point exactly. Thank you!

Specifications are directly linked to amp performance and amp performance cannot be left out of the equation.

Amp performance and sound quality are at best subjective.

There is no such thing as a "sounds loud to me" scale when doing output measurements.

There are also no industry-wide set of standards for reporting amp specifications either. (But there should be. IMO) Even if industry-wide standards did exist, there would still be a subjective aspect to evaluating amp perfmance. It would be less ambiguous though.

 

[JackANSI]

There is no such thing as a "sounds loud to me" scale when doing output measurements.

I'll post again since I didn't get any takers first time around, obviously..

Dismiss it as a fallacy if it makes you feel better, but I doubt anyone who defends it as "sounds like 450watts to me!" will dare to take this up because deep down they know that its not as loud as 450 real watts


I have a very, very nice RTA/SPL meter. The classic AudioControl SA-3050A. If someone near central PA wants to put their RH450 against a SVP/Powerbase2 combo through the same cab to put this "sounds as loud" BS to bed, I'm all for it. I really regret not doing just this before I sold my RH450.

Bring it! Put up or shut up time.

I'll also loan my SA-3050A to BGM if they want to put together that microamp shootout with some SPL figures. Only request I have would be to try to include 3 classic 'old-iron' amps. The tube SVT, the SVT 4 Pro, and the Hartke 3500.

 

[Hawaii Islander]

He's also missing the part about those who have no dog in this hunt, yet still feel the need to criticize the opinions of those who do.

Every bass player and potential bass amp purchaser has a "dog in this hunt".

 

[guy n. cognito]

Every bass player and potential bass amp purchaser has a "dog in this hunt".

Incorrect. Every potential or actual TCE customer has a dog in this hunt.