I could, but I'm not! I've also owned just about every amp there is and the TC was the most disappointing in what I expected. I watch the amp section and the classifieds more than any other forum on TB. I stand by my statement.
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TC Electronics RH450 Quasi-Wattage Ratings Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jarrett
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I could, but I'm not! I've also owned just about every amp there is and the TC was the most disappointing in what I expected. I watch the amp section and the classifieds more than any other forum on TB. I stand by my statement.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,350
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
You just demonstrated my point exactly. Thank you!
Specifications are directly linked to amp performance and amp performance cannot be left out of the equation.
Amp performance and sound quality are at best subjective.
There are also no industry-wide set of standards for reporting amp specifications either. (But there should be. IMO) Even if industry-wide standards did exist, there would still be a subjective aspect to evaluating amp perfmance. It would be less ambiguous though.
Amp performance can be measured. Perceived volume on the other hand, is entirely subjective, based upon the user's ears. Perception is like that. If you are going to label what your amp produces in WATTS you'll need to actually measure in WATTS. Wattage is a technical unit of measure. MEASURE. Let me say that again...MEASURE. These watts are not measured watts they're made up watts. You may want to go back to Thor's posts, which lays out a definition and formula for a watt.
Now companies do tend to measure in watts, but like to fudge the info around that measurement, you know, things like THD. In practice a good company should give you their information coached in terms of the other measurement aspects that play in. Some do, some don't.
If you're going to measure in "Perceivies" you'll need to define that some way that's at least understandable.
guy n. cognito:
i am not sure who or what you are referring to with your "dog in this hunt" comment, and you very well know where i stand, but i think every bass player and purchaser or potential purchaser of gear have a dog in this hunt.
i think the only relevant facts here are did tce lie about their specs or did they not.
H I has said, and i believe him, that there are no industry standards. well, for me that makes it a little more problematic-- did they lie or not, and according to who?
apparently bgm says they did. how did they measure the output of the amp? i don't know, just asking. did they use "industry accepted standards"? again, according to HI, there are no such standards.
i want to know if by generally accepted standards they lied or did not lie.
if they in fact did lie, then i think it very inappropriate for those who don't care to take issue with those who do. if you don't care, how are we hurting you by getting up in arms? just go on and we will do the same.
if they did lie, then i think it is a big deal because if they get away with it, others will do the same (if only to remain competitive).
/s/ Dave
i am not sure who or what you are referring to with your "dog in this hunt" comment, and you very well know where i stand, but i think every bass player and purchaser or potential purchaser of gear have a dog in this hunt.
i think the only relevant facts here are did tce lie about their specs or did they not.
H I has said, and i believe him, that there are no industry standards. well, for me that makes it a little more problematic-- did they lie or not, and according to who?
apparently bgm says they did. how did they measure the output of the amp? i don't know, just asking. did they use "industry accepted standards"? again, according to HI, there are no such standards.
i want to know if by generally accepted standards they lied or did not lie.
if they in fact did lie, then i think it very inappropriate for those who don't care to take issue with those who do. if you don't care, how are we hurting you by getting up in arms? just go on and we will do the same.
if they did lie, then i think it is a big deal because if they get away with it, others will do the same (if only to remain competitive).
/s/ Dave
That's fine, but if thats your only qualifier, it doesn't hold much weight. Literally every single amp that's come out, from the Markbass stuff, to the Shuttle's and Streamliners, and GK's. All went through the exact same cycle.
You have the pre-release rumors that have dozens of threads and thousands of responses in. Then you have the release phase where people are preordering the newest and lightest. Then the honeymoon phase, and finally the classifieds phase. Within a week of delivery these amps show up in the classifieds. I don't think the TC is any better or worse than any other amp that's been put out. The general consensus is that this amp is a great amp, just like all the other aforementioned amps.
So since all of these amps go through the same cycles, you'd have to apply your logic to every amp in recent memory.
I am very aware of the "technical" side of things. But, you cannot evaluate an amp's performance by specs alone. Technical aspects of amp performance (bench testing) has to be paired up with the partly subjective performance (real world application as well). The two aspects go hand in hand. I have been out of the electronics field for a while but I am not a novice. USAF - Ground Radio Maintenance Specialist (4 yrs), Hawaii Air National Guard - Ground Radio Maintenance Specialist (3 yrs), and Radio and Telecommunications technician (5 yrs).
You can have a piece of gear with great looking specs that sounds/works like crap just as easy as the other way round.
I would have to agree with this. It happens with every new head, followed by the threads asking "what's wrong with these heads....everybody is selling them.?"
For the record, I am not upset. I don't own a RH450. Maybe it's a nice amp. When it was introduced, I was pleased with the idea of a micro head with a digital front end.
Power is power.
Loudness is loudness.
The loudness of bass amps, relative to their rated power, will be a source of opinions, beliefs, and marketing claims, until the end of time. It can't be quantified at all, and claims to the effect of particular amps being particularly loud can't be substantiated. If amp makers start rating their amps in Purported Loudness Units instead of Watts, how will this be better than the present state of affairs?
Power is power.
Loudness is loudness.
The loudness of bass amps, relative to their rated power, will be a source of opinions, beliefs, and marketing claims, until the end of time. It can't be quantified at all, and claims to the effect of particular amps being particularly loud can't be substantiated. If amp makers start rating their amps in Purported Loudness Units instead of Watts, how will this be better than the present state of affairs?
I have no clue where you stand. There are over 1,000 posts in this thread, and I haven't seen yours.
HI seems to be here simply to criticize owners of these heads who are angry about this recent discovery. My last comment was to him, not you.
I would have to agree with this. It happens with every new head, followed by the threads asking "what's wrong with these heads....everybody is selling them.?"
Haha, I forgot about the "why is everyone selling them" threads
I am not angry with anyone. Not you nor TCE. End of abiguity on that issue.
Edit: My criticism is with the basis of the argument that seems to shift from time to time and the level of vitriol involved.
guy n. cognito
where i stand is that if TCE lied, it is a big deal. and i don't want their apologists to try to put us on the defensive or to change the subject to "what a great amp" or "everybody else does it"
however i do believe that every TB'er has a dog in this hunt.
/s/ Dave
where i stand is that if TCE lied, it is a big deal. and i don't want their apologists to try to put us on the defensive or to change the subject to "what a great amp" or "everybody else does it"
however i do believe that every TB'er has a dog in this hunt.
/s/ Dave
The simple fact remains that "perceived" loudness at 1 to 3 feet will have very little to do with the "perceived" loudness at 10 to 20 feet, that requires "power" not "magic" distortion of the signal.
HI, a simple concept given your background yes?
HI, a simple concept given your background yes?
Hawaii Islander said:I am not angry with anyone. Not you nor TCE. End of abiguity on that issue.
Edit: My criticism is with the basis of the argument that seems to shift from time to time and the level of vitriol involved.
There is no ambiguity. I didn't say anything about you being angry.
H I;
if (and i repeat IF) it is shown that TCE lied about their specs, what level of vitriol would you consider appropriate? just asking.
i bet people such as adivin and others who paid nearly a grand for this amp and have seen it's used value drop precipitously now that all this has hit the fan will feel considerably vitriolic towards TCE.
/s/ Dave
if (and i repeat IF) it is shown that TCE lied about their specs, what level of vitriol would you consider appropriate? just asking.
i bet people such as adivin and others who paid nearly a grand for this amp and have seen it's used value drop precipitously now that all this has hit the fan will feel considerably vitriolic towards TCE.
/s/ Dave
The "loudness" / "performance" tests were not limited to 1 - 3 feet from the posts that I read. If they were, then your assessment would be accurate. I have no idea what engineering (magic) went into the amp. So, I can't speak to that.
None. I would simply ask that they be honest and forthcoming about their amp specs before spending my money on their product. No emotion needed. Now, if they caused the death of their customers, then I would probably be upset (at least a little
)
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,350
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
You're still ignoring half of things.
As a man of 'science' you know that watts are measurement, so obviously quoting a random number that you haven't measured isn't a legit thing to do. That's what's gone on here.
At the same time, I'm not arguing ANYTHING about the quality of the tone, or the perceived volume. I understand how compression works (as you do too, I assume). We've all owned amps that had different sound qualities and yes, that's INDEPENDENT of wattage. Most tube amps, for instance have a perceived volume level even though they rate fairly low in their actual wattage, much the same way that many solid state amps would appear to be quiet, given their rated wattage.
You're saying that evaluation needs to be done on both experiential terms as well as technical. I would agree. But I don't believe that you can ignore the technical. Especially when the technical stuff has been put up AS FACT to bluff your way into people's wallets.
Again, until you're willing to measure in 'perceivies' (maybe we could even use HI as their shorthand symbol, like the RH450 has 450HI RMS and 800HI peak), if the company is quoting watts, they need to have measured in watts. If you have a good way to measure your newly minted unit of measure, let me know.
TC could very well have been honest and trumpeted their technology and feature set and TOLD people of the magic of their amp and how it makes 236w sound like 800w. But they didn't. They told them it was a 450/800w amp. Its not.
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