I can translate what you just said to "major key songs sound different from minor key songs" except I used a lot fewer words to say it, and my students are less confused than your students.
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Teach Chords or Scales first?
- Thread starter bassbrother666
- Start date
I can translate what you just said to "major key songs sound different from minor key songs" except I used a lot fewer words to say it, and my students are less confused than your students.
I think I'd have a good laugh if I was at that jam. In 47 years of playing I've never heard anyone say that (but then, I don't hang with conservatory trained jazz players). What I do hear is "here's a song in C" (not Ionian) ... or "here's a song in Am" (not C Aeolian mode). I agree that thinking in modes is just confusing ... most musicians can hear the overall sound of the song, and can intuit what notes belong, and which don't.
Modes are a nice way to convert a chord progression to another flavor for a added section to a song. You can take the verse chord progression and use the same intervals from each chord start from another note in the major scale and have something that sounds way different but still in the same key. Though it's easier said then done but it's just like going to a minor key for the bridge in a major key.
I don't really want to be a part of some silly argument but the method you mentioned about moving things like a I IV V from one mode to another doesn't work well for one of a number of reasons. You have to look at the harmony of each mode in an exclusive way in order to correctly use the aspects of tension and release without it all going wrong. The best treatise I would recommend on modal harmony is in the Vincent Persichetti book : Twentieth Century Harmony. He explains modal harmony in a much better way than I would so I'd check that out for any expansion on what I just said.
This modal thing gets really out of hand and is usually dealing with stuff that is way out of the scope of the listening and/or composing habits of 99% of musicians. I know a lot of people think that some bands are displaying 'modal composition' but they very rarely are. And I don't count some metal band messing about in a Phrygian mode with a bunch of parallel power chords as 'modal music'. Yes, they are using modes as a rough basis for 'something' but using the chords within a mode to truly exploit the inherent consonances and dissonances takes quite a bit of skill so as to not drift into a relative mode/major/minor key.
Just as an extra to my last comment. As a clue as to what I'm talking about with the I IV V in a mode thing: Try playing the following chord progression: Cdim - Fminor - Gb. That would be a I IV V in C Locrian. It doesn't work. You can't just transpose from one mode to another and expect everything to magically work. It's a complete disregard for the reasons functional harmony works in a major or minor key. It's things like this on a much less problematic level that caused composers to use the Harmonic Minor scale for getting the dominant 7 in there.
The Locrian mode is the only modern diatonic mode in which the tonic triad is a Diminished, which is considered dissonant. This is because the interval between the root and fifth of the chord is a diminished fifth. Locrian is a mode that has a diminished sound and a chord progression with a diminished chord would work perfect to bring out the sound of locrian. Make all 3 chords a 7th chord and the progression starts to sound like some music. Play C locrian with the chords Cdim7 Fm7 Gb7 and you will instantly hear that diminished sound that the locrian mode has.
I understand all that but the problem you encounter with this kind of stuff is that the tonic starts to lose any feeling of resolution as the voice leading in the progression deteriorates. There's more to a key than flavour.
Btw, the 7th chords would actually be Cm7b5 Fm7 GbMaj7. The GbMaj7 has no feeling of movement back to the Cm7b5 at all.
Hold on now. Actually Schlyder and I are in agreement. Nothing got debunked there. We were just looking at a concept from two different perspectives which is fine as long as we ultimately end up viewing the concept in the same basic way. That's really the only function of music theory: so that two or more musicians can communicate ideas effectively.
Here's how I see the issue and I'm not trying to come at you in a harsh way, but it needs to be said.
You have a definite idea in your head of how modal and diatonic harmony works. Other people like MarkJSmith, Mushroo, Smeet and Schlyder among others, have a different idea than yours of how this harmony works. Their concept is in "collective" agreement and they have EXTENSIVE experience in harmony and theory, but the problem is that you are not trusting their information and you are clinging to your ideas.
Here's the fact. Your concept of modal and diatonic harmony is very flawed. It's only correct around the edges and in some certain cases ONLY by accident. If I were to grade it, I'd give it a D+.
I'm going to respectfully say that you take a step back and just "pretend" that what they are saying is true. Check on some other sources around the web and in textbooks, then compare that to your concept of harmony and then maybe adjust how you approach it. It's probably not going to be some kind of instant light bulb moment, but I honestly believe it will get you moving in a different and more correct way of considering harmony.
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My theory got thrown the hardest mode to write music for and one that almost everyone avoids (most likely was the reason that was thrown at me anyway, as it's the easiest mode to confuse people with), the diminished locrian mode. As with modes we have 3 major and 3 minor then the dreaded locrian is all alone. Diminished chords are hard to start a chord progression with as in it's very hard to resolve back to a diminished chord musically. And why would anything you say to me be harsh or have to tell me to respectfully step back? This is a forum made for discussions and debates there for I am not offended in anyway if you say i'm wrong. As I would respectful disagree with someone and then explain why I think they might be a bit off and not resort to insults (as I'd hope everyone else on this forum would do the same).
Hey, yeah I'm all for a good debate and I'm certainly not trying to be insulting at any level. And I don't think anyone here was trying to be insulting either, although some frustration may have come out, in some circumstances, lol. Anyway, I was only making suggestions.
By the way, it's "just" Locrian, not Diminished Locrian (that doesn't exist) and the harmonized 7th chord you could associate with it is just the Half-Diminished chord. It's not a fully diminished chord.
That's an interesting concept to consider that one mode is more difficult than another. It's something I had not thought about. They are all the same to me.
By the phrase, "take a step back" I only meant to say you might want to give the mode/harmony thing a little more thought, but I don't believe that's going to happen, which is perfectly fine.
The root chord of the harmonized Locrian mode is a Diminished chord, there for we can say it has a diminished feel other then major or minor scales. This will affect the way we construct Locrian modal vamps we'll want to emphasize the Diminished character of the Locrian mode, and the only way to do that is to use the root chord (Cdim), and only the root chord. We can add a minor 7th extension to the chord to express the minor 7th (Bb), but that's about it: the only chord we can use in our Locrian vamp is the root chord with minor 7th extension (Cdim7 or Cm7b5). This holds true in general the i chord is the only truly valid chord in Locrian progressions. That's why it's such a pain to use, only one chord really works with the progression. We can play Em6 chord that's consisted of the exact same notes as the Cm7b5 chord, but it uses a different note as the bass note. This is called an inversion, and the inverted chord received a different name... but basically, the chords consist of the same notes, so they're pretty much identical.
The I chord ( you are incorrectly calling it the root chord) in the harmonized Locrian mode would be a I -7b5 chord, otherwise known as a half-diminished chord.
The half diminished chord, or -7b5 chord, functions as a II chord in minor tonality, and as a VII chord in major tonality.
You cannot interchange between Cdim7 and C-7b5 and keep the same harmony with a Locrian mode. The Bb and the Bbb clash.
If you want to noodle in C Locrian... Bb minor is the tonality it works with.... or Db major.
Diminished chords function mainly as passing chords. Not a chord you want to sit and vamp on for an extended amount of time. Diminished chords and Half Diminished chords are not the same thing.
The half diminished chord, or -7b5 chord, functions as a II chord in minor tonality, and as a VII chord in major tonality.
You cannot interchange between Cdim7 and C-7b5 and keep the same harmony with a Locrian mode. The Bb and the Bbb clash.
If you want to noodle in C Locrian... Bb minor is the tonality it works with.... or Db major.
Diminished chords function mainly as passing chords. Not a chord you want to sit and vamp on for an extended amount of time. Diminished chords and Half Diminished chords are not the same thing.
Yup. Generally speaking, modes are about 1% useful.
Their Primary application is Talk Bass thread bloat. (guilty)
How are modes unless when the two widely used scale in popular music to build melody, harmony and chords are the major (ionian) and minor (aeolian) scales. Both the modes and scales or what some people call keys have the same exact notes and chords in the same order.
Actually the Dorian mode is more commonly used in commercial music for minor chords (Allman Brothers for example). I rarely hear straight up Aeolian. It's usually altered as Harmonic minor, or Melodic minor scales in jazz especially. Honestly, the way people are talking in this thread is in such a classical way. Are we analyzing current commercial music like classical? We shouldn't be. Current music is not Mozart, or Bach. In commercial music, diatonic chord progressions are actually quite rare. The blues being a fine example of that. We can't use the standard diatonic progression to analyze commercial music. It just doesn't fit.
^
This was just a theory discussion. Not one piece of music was analyzed in the making of this thread. But anytime someone mentions scales, it degenerates into something like this...
This was just a theory discussion. Not one piece of music was analyzed in the making of this thread. But anytime someone mentions scales, it degenerates into something like this...
understanding the major and minor scales (and their harmony) is fundamental.
understanding them as modes is much less useful.
I'm not advocating ignorance: students should know what the modes are and how they are derived from the major scale
but after that they should just stop thinking about them until other more useful things are mastered.
understanding them as modes is much less useful.
I'm not advocating ignorance: students should know what the modes are and how they are derived from the major scale
but after that they should just stop thinking about them until other more useful things are mastered.
What kind of music theory? Classical and commercial are very different, so if we are discussing theory, it helps to know what kind of music we are referring to as the theory is different. Very different. This thread has leaned heavily towards the classical theory end of things. Tonic is a very classical term. I've seen many terms like that in this thread, so unless we're all playing classical music on electric basses (which isn't a bad thing at all. It's actually fun to do), discussing theory in a classical way will confuse people instead of teaching them something, or helping them.
Stop thinking about the modes? Not until you can use them effectively without having to think about them. If someone can do that, there are a ton of other useful scales to learn.
I "use modes effectively without having to think about them " all the time. It's called "playing the chord changes."
Which you can do without ever consciously thinking about modes.
The problem is that executing modes is easy to tab and teach so beginners gravitate towards them and then ask "how do I use this?"
and because they are the diatonic scale, they are arguably "used everywhere" in music (regardless of whether composers actually give a moment's thought to modes)
but to really understand and apply modes you need a solid command of major & minor scale harmony, cadences, and chord progressions
at which point you don't really need to "think in modes" to get where you need to go
for all the discussion they generate, modes are not so useful as harmony & the rest of the things
Which you can do without ever consciously thinking about modes.
The problem is that executing modes is easy to tab and teach so beginners gravitate towards them and then ask "how do I use this?"
and because they are the diatonic scale, they are arguably "used everywhere" in music (regardless of whether composers actually give a moment's thought to modes)
but to really understand and apply modes you need a solid command of major & minor scale harmony, cadences, and chord progressions
at which point you don't really need to "think in modes" to get where you need to go
for all the discussion they generate, modes are not so useful as harmony & the rest of the things
