Teach Chords or Scales first?

[Rmackner]

You are confusing finger positioning with modes. A mode IS a key. When you play in A aeolian the root of the key is A, not C, so you're changing keys. If the root of the key is not A, you are NOT in A aeolian, you are still in C major. If you don't agree with that, then your definitions are different enough from mine that it would be difficult to have a discussion, and we can agree to disagree.

How is the mode a key (you can't even note that on written music) within itself when it uses all the same chords and notes (just starting from a different degree in the scale) as the major scale it was built from. Also with that thought process the first chord of ANY chord progression is always the key and that's 100% wrong. Modes are flavors of the major scale it was built from and give you endless ways to play in the key of C while still using all the same notes within the key of C. When you really get down to it the minor key isn't really a key within itself. It uses all the same notes/chords as it's major parent and is based of the 6th degree of the major scale the aeolian. Aeolian is just the most popular sad sounding mode of the major scale and became the most stable scale for a minor key in western music.

 

[smeet]

When you are truly in E Phrygian, E will sound like the root of the key. Ending on the E minor chord will sound correct and final. If not, you are not in any scale or mode with an E root.

We have a fundamental disagreement. However, if it works for you, that's what matters, so rock on.

 

[Rmackner]

When you are truly in E Phrygian, E will sound like the root of the key. Ending on the E minor chord will sound correct and final. If not, you are not in any scale or mode with an E root.

We have a fundamental disagreement. However, if it works for you, that's what matters, so rock on.

but the root of the key doesn't always have to be the first chord in the progression and lots of musicians don't use the first chord in the key as the first (BTW i'm not saying follow the root of the chord and change mode with every chord). As long as I have a e minor chord in the progression of a C major key the e phrygian scale will harmonize with all off the chords since E phrygian has no notes outside of the key of C. I do agree on having the e minor chord early in the progression since the brain might not hear phrygian until the e minor chord is played the first time around (though I think the flatted 2nd is more then enough to hear phrygian even without a chord on top and that's why it's a more common mode, it's a little more stable then other modes and stands out even when played alone like aeolian).

 

[smeet]

My last comment on the subject: I never said anything about the first chord, or any other individual chord. You feel diatonic chords change the key center, and I don't. You can hear what the current key center is, and a song will "want" to end on the root of the key.

 

[RustyAxe]

Key signature vs tonic. In a C major scale they are the same ... C. But in a song where the relative minor is the tonic, although the key signature remains C the tonic is A (minor). A song in which Am is the tonic is usually the Aeolian mode of the C major scale. There's lots of info on the web ... here's a couple of links for ya ...

Mode (music) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_%28music%29

While one can learn all this through rote memorization, better is to learn to HEAR the way these modes are expressed in the music. Examples on this page ... Nickleus Music Technology Blog: Song examples of modal music: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian

 

[Wooly John]

I think much of the confusion about modes comes from the development of music theory. Before the Baroque period, starting approximately 1600, music was modal, derived from the Church modes which were derived from Pythagorean theory. During the Baroque period, key signatures began to be used and modes were abandoned except for the Ionian and Aeolian, which became our natural major and natural minor scales, or the major scale and it's relative minor.
In the mid-19th century, folksong collectors noticed that some old English, Irish and Scottish folksongs were in the Dorian mode. This revived interest in modes. Some Dorian songs were preserved in the Appalachians of the US and so it is sometimes called Mountain mode.
The modal and key approaches to music are different and there isn't any clear theory about how they relate, and lots of disagreement.
Modes weren't successfully incorporated into music until the modal jazz the mid twentieth century (starting with Bebop).
Most popular music sticks to the major and minor scales of the musical keys.
(This is my understanding of the history of modes - if I'm mistaken please let me know as I would like to improve my knowledge and not be spreading misinformation - we have enough of that!)

 

[markjsmithbass]

but the root of the key doesn't always have to be the first chord in the progression and lots of musicians don't use the first chord in the key as the first (BTW i'm not saying follow the root of the chord and change mode with every chord). As long as I have a e minor chord in the progression of a C major key the e phrygian scale will harmonize with all off the chords since E phrygian has no notes outside of the key of C. I do agree on having the e minor chord early in the progression since the brain might not hear phrygian until the e minor chord is played the first time around (though I think the flatted 2nd is more then enough to hear phrygian even without a chord on top and that's why it's a more common mode, it's a little more stable then other modes and stands out even when played alone like aeolian).

Are you using the phrygian mode as a blanket mode over chords in the major key (E Phrygian over a chord progression in C Major)? If so, suspect this is why a few people get confused with the whole mode thing. I'm not saying it won't work (in analysis terms you're just using the parent major scale and possibly a bunch of accented passing notes) it's just that, if you're not careful or don't keep track of the individual chords going by, it can end to veer into the 'modes as a bunch of neck positions' kind of mindset. And that is where it goes completely off the rails.

I think the problems it presents can be more in an music education sense more than a personal application sense because everyone has there own way of approaching stuff and the ear is the best judge at the end of the day. Anyone that's seen Allan Holdsworth's instructional video has to face that fact because the way he sees everything is way off the traditional academic teaching method.

Btw, Anyone that's seen my loooong ass video on modes (if you could bear it for all that time) will have seen my rant on modes and how they can be a massive distraction in working through changes if you don't have the chord tone basics down first. I often get students asking about modes before they know the basics of chord construction and the most simple of arpeggios and I always have to say "Sloooow down. Let's look at a a major chord first"

 

[Rmackner]

Key signature vs tonic. In a C major scale they are the same ... C. But in a song where the relative minor is the tonic, although the key signature remains C the tonic is A (minor). A song in which Am is the tonic is usually the Aeolian mode of the C major scale.

Yea that was the point I attempted to make haha. The key signature tells us the intervals of the notes within this key. The tonic lets us know where to start in the key signature and because of that, the tonic note has the leading tone in the melody we make. By using the D note of the key of C as the tonic we know the relation of intervals because of the key signature of C to make the dorian scale. The we can use the dorian scale to know the new order of notes and create a melody focusing on the new tonic but only using the notes of the key signature. You can take common chord progressions like I - IV - V and then start that at the 2nd degree of any key signature (lets say C) and we get the chords Dm G Am and then create a melody over these chords using dorian. All while your still in the key of C and can use this stuff for cool bridges for songs!

 

[Mushroo]

How is the mode a key (you can't even note that on written music) within itself when it uses all the same chords and notes (just starting from a different degree in the scale) as the major scale it was built from. Also with that thought process the first chord of ANY chord progression is always the key and that's 100% wrong. Modes are flavors of the major scale it was built from and give you endless ways to play in the key of C while still using all the same notes within the key of C. When you really get down to it the minor key isn't really a key within itself. It uses all the same notes/chords as it's major parent and is based of the 6th degree of the major scale the aeolian. Aeolian is just the most popular sad sounding mode of the major scale and became the most stable scale for a minor key in western music.

If the song is in the key of C, the key signature is no sharps or flats, the notes used are CDEFGABC, and the chords are diatonic to the key of C, then I am not playing "modal music" in my opinion/experience. I am in the key of C Major (**not** C Ionian!), period, end of conversation. If you hear it differently then I respect that, but we do seem to have a fundamental disagreement about what "modes" are. In my opinion the way your teacher taught you to understand modes has over-complicated what should be a very easy-to-understand concept of a I-vi progression. And in our digital age, it actually takes fewer keystrokes to communicate "C to Am" or even "CEG to ACE" than it does to communicate "C Ionian to A Aeolian."

 

[Rmackner]

If the song is in the key of C, the key signature is no sharps or flats, the notes used are CDEFGABC, and the chords are diatonic to the key of C, then I am not playing "modal music" in my opinion/experience.

Because you started at the first interval of the Key signature of C you're using the rule of ionian mode's order of notes to create melody and harmony.

 

[Mushroo]

Because you started at the first interval of the Key signature of C you're using the order of notes of the ionian mode to create melody and harmony.

No, I absolutely am not thinking "C Ionian" when I play in C Major! And if I start and end my melody on D, I am not "playing D Dorian" but rather I am just "playing a melody that has D in it."

A song in the key of C is not "modal music" and you don't need to know what an "ionian mode" is to play the song. This is my point exactly: very few teachers know how to teach the modes, and the result is a lot of confused students.

Disclaimer: There are exceptions. I actually can think of a few songs that are truly "modal music using C Ionian." Here is a lovely one from Shostakovich, the Prelude is in C Major but the Fugue is modal in C Ionian:



Can you hear the difference?

 

[Rmackner]

No, I absolutely am not thinking "C Ionian" when I play in C Major! And if I start and end my melody on D, I am not "playing D Dorian" but rather I am just "playing a melody that has D in it."

If course your not playing the whole Ionian you pick out a few notes that harmonize well with the underlying chords. Like playing the c major pentatonic scale might not sound a lot like Ionian to some but it's intervals still relate to Ionian scale it was built from with a few missing notes. It's pretty common knowledge to know the major key is from Ionian and the minor is aeolian.

 

[Mushroo]

It's pretty common knowledge to know the major key is from Ionian and the minor is aeolian.

I think I see the root of our misunderstanding. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Schlyder]

this thread is way off topic again... but this go-around with the modes demonstrates what happens when material is taught improperly.
All the confusion surrounding the concept of Modes, has come about because of poor music theory instruction, by unqualified teachers.

 

[Rmackner]

this thread is way off topic again... but this go-around with the modes demonstrates what happens when material is taught improperly.
All the confusion surrounding the concept of Modes, has come about because of poor music theory instruction, by unqualified teachers.

Your idea of modes got debunked on the last page, every scale is based of modes. You may alter notes but you still use the rules of the modes to create chords and harmony. We are talking about how C major is the ionian scale of the key signature of C.

 

[Schlyder]

Your idea of modes got debunked on the last page, every scale is based of modes. You may alter notes but you still use the rules of the modes to create chords and harmony. We are talking about how C major is the ionian scale of the key signature of C.

LOL "...every scale is based off modes." what a load of garbage. I suggest you get some formal music education, because you are posting garbage information. Utter garbage.

 

[Rmackner]

Yes.. the Major scale is the main reference point and yardstick that is used for many things in western 12 tone music. It is best to understand it before any other scales/modes, chords or any other harmony is introduced. This is the beginning after learning where the notes are on the instrument and the staff. The major scale... intervals... whole tone/semitone relationship...chromatic scale....That is the first things to learn.... then key sigs, time sigs, circle of 4ths/5ths .....all this, before triads, 7th chords, arpeggios, and the rest of the giant ball of wax that is music theory.

So now your going against what you said before?

 

[Schlyder]

So now your going against what you said before?

Do you have reading comprehension issues? You better read that post again.

 

[enricogaletta]

it's very difficult teach or say in this way.. let your student understand a scale and modes/degrees without explaining at the same time the relative arpeggio and chord.
Try to set all your scales lessons step by step for each mode and the relative arpeggio and chord. It work perfectly with my students.
Cheers. Enrico

 

[Rmackner]

Do you have reading comprehension issues? You better read that post again.

Yes that was you responding to a post that said "My point of view is that EVERY scale relates to the major scale, meaning the sequence of intervals that is: W W H W W W H. So using The Melodic Minor as an example, once you establish the relationship of the Melodic Minor to the Major scale sequence it's easy to understand. Then you apply the same modal concepts to Melodic Minor that you applied to the Major scale. It's just a sequence of intervals." Then you said "Yes.. the Major scale is the main reference point and yardstick that is used for many things in western 12 tone music." In western music the major scale came first so it would only make sense that everything else after it used it as a reference right? At least I don't have to settle to insults to get my point across lol...