Teach Chords or Scales first?

[Schlyder]

If you teach the major (ionian mode) and minor scale (i assume you mean natural minor thats aeolian mode) you kinda are teach modes anyway. It's best to start with the idea that every scale is built off the major scale and by following the root note of the chord changes within the major scale of the key your in, your playing modes. Then play the modes over a drone bass note to hear the flavor each mode can offer.

But every scale/mode is not built off the major scale. The Lydian Dominant scale isn't, it is the 4th mode of the melodic minor scale. The point is... modes do not get introduced until well after a student has a solid understanding in more basic concepts, and terminology.

 

[Schlyder]

and to add to my last post... I teach modes using the Major scale, and Melodic minor scale/Harmonic minor scales, as the concept of "Modes" does not pertain to only the major scale.

 

[Rmackner]

But every scale/mode is not built off the major scale. The Lydian Dominant scale isn't, it is the 4th mode of the melodic minor scale. The point is... modes do not get introduced until well after a student has a solid understanding in more basic concepts, and terminology.

Ok lets not say "all scales" but other scales like the harmonic minor add a G# to the A minor key and really start to confuse things for most. I'd say as your grasping the basics of theory to leave out the scales with altered notes for a bit.

 

[cnltb]

A song-the chords one needs-the notes needed in the chords(including the 7s)-the scales connecting everything.
From there to all the harmonic clichès one should know.
That#s one approach that has worked for me in the past.

 

[Schlyder]

Ok lets not say "all scales" but other scales like the harmonic minor add a G# to the A minor key and really start to confuse things for most. I'd say as your grasping the basics of theory to leave out the scales with altered notes for a bit.

LOL That is what I said. Modes are not a part of the basic learning of scales and chords. Modes are a secondary concept. That is why things need to be taught/learned in a proper order, or confusion is going to occur with the student. The student learns the major scale first, as that is most recognizable, and has all natural note names, and is the yardstick other scales are compared against. After that, the natural minor scale, then the melodic, harmonic minors, whole tone, diminished etc... from basic to more complex. It all starts with the major scale, and basic diatonic harmony... then expands out to more complex concepts. This is quite a ways off topic...
I re-iterate.... If the OP is uncertain as to start teaching scales or chords first, in the teaching of basic music theory, he isn't ready to be teaching yet.

 

[placedesjardins]

So i am starting to think about giving classes(musical theory) , and as i was creating a lesson plan i came upon this dilemma, and hopefully you can help me solve it.
Should I teach chords or scales first, and what do you base your opinion on ?

Have you ever taken a music theory course? You would go the scale direction.
If you are just teaching basic guitar and want the student to get strumming as soon as possible to get some enjoyment, then you can teach chords along with scales.

 

[electracoyote]

I taught intervals, both scalar and harmonic. The two are so closely related, you almost can't approach them separately.

For example, when I taught the major scale as intervals named after a root, I almost immediately started to explain which intervals went into a major chord, and how the other intervals serve other purposes (extended chords, passing notes, etc.).

A scale is a relatively simple thing. Once the intervals are memorized, you're done. The "musical" part is what to do with the intervals.

 

[CatSquare]

Major scale then chord tones. There's lots of meat on them bones

 

[smeet]

Here's my 3.141592 cents. This is a bit long and ranty, but hey, it's the internet.

The order in which different concepts developed historically is not necessarily the order in which they should be taught.
That said, scales predate and are more fundamental than chords and harmony, which should be obvious if you look at the history of Western music and then at other world music. All world music has rhythm. Pretty much all of it has scales. Only those styles derived from Western music have chords, and Western music first developed the idea of polyphony (which is essential to harmony) around A.D 900, which is really not that long ago. This quote from the Abbey of Regina Laudis makes that clear:

The simple, pure lines of Gregorian chant go back to the origins of the first Christian communities and the earliest recorded Western music. It is sometimes referred to as plainsong, because it predates the use of harmony or polyphony.

The order in which most people teach different concepts is not necessarily the order in which they should be taught.
Also although scales are more fundamental concept than are chords (melody predates harmony), it is still IMO true that to improvise in a purposeful way in harmonic music, your note choices need to be driven by the harmony, which are a subset of the notes in the key scale. You can always deviate from the chord tones if that's what you hear, but the chord tones (in a traditional jazz/classical context) are more musically definitive and therefore important than the non-chordal scale tones.

The way a concept was derived is not necessarily relevant to how it should be analyzed or used.
Modes. The whole concept of these is SO misunderstood and misused, it drives me crazy to read some of the discussions. The usual modes were/are just a convenient way to create some good-sounding scales that can be used.
The Major scale was one of the first scales put into wide use in Western music. The ancient Greeks, being the mathy and sciencey guys they were, attempted to get the most variety out of this scale without losing its defining structure of half/whole steps. So, they gave names to the scales based on each degree of the major scale. That's how they came to be defined.

But is that what they ARE? Is that what defines how they should be USED or TAUGHT? I don't think so. Don't compare the major scale to each mode derived from the same notes. Compare the major scale to each mode starting from the same ROOT. This will give you a clearer picture of how they function musically. For example, the Mixolydian scale is NOT at its core a scale that starts on the 5th degree of the major scale (although that is how it was "discovered"). Rather, it is a major scale with a minor 7th degree.

So, starting from the major scale, we have (in CODE so formatting is preserved):

Ionian:     Major scale
Dorian:     Major scale, b3, b7
Phrygian:   Major scale, b2, b3, b6, b7
Lydian:     Major scale, #4
Mixolydian: Major scale, b7
Aeolian:    Major scale, b3, b6, b7
Locrian:    Major scale, b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

Now, you can compare all these modes to each other. The scale degree they started from doesn't matter. The sound of the scale, that's what matters, and this is how it functions musically.
Here's each mode compared , showing the scale degrees on the corresponding 12 tones:

Ionian:     R_2_34_5_6_7R
Dorian:     R_23_4_5_67_R
Phrygian:   R2_3_4_56_7_R
Lydian:     R_2_3_45_6_7R
Mixolydian: R_2_34_5_67_R
Aeolian:    R_23_4_56_7_R
Locrian:    R2_3_45_6_7_R

Viewed this way, it's clear how these scales interrelate and how they will sound relative to each other.

 

[Wooly John]

Start with the C major scale.
Introduce the concept of intervals as the pattern of intervals (R-w-w-h-w-w-w-h in the major scale) underlies all other scales, chords and modes.
Show how the C chord and Cmaj7 chord are derived from the scale - note the intervals of the chord.
Introduce the C minor scale, the minor scale intervals (R-w-h-w-w-h-w-w) and how the Cm chord and Cm7 are derived from the C minor scale.
Then show how all the other scales follow the same interval patterns, resulting in scales with # and b.
Show how chords derived from other scales follow the same interval patterns.
From there you can get into relative minors, triads, chord extensions (augmented, diminished, suspended, etc) the Circle of Fourths and Fifths, Modes or anywhere else you want to go.

 

[Spin Doctor]

But every scale/mode is not built off the major scale. The Lydian Dominant scale isn't, it is the 4th mode of the melodic minor scale. The point is... modes do not get introduced until well after a student has a solid understanding in more basic concepts, and terminology.

Hmm, well speaking to the idea of building scales off the major scale, that depends on how you look at it. The parent scale of the Melodic Minor is just a Dorian mode with a natural 7th. The 4th mode of the MM scale happens to be called Lydian Dominant, but it's still just a sequence of notes derived from the Dorian mode with a natural 7th. You simply start from the 4th note and go up.

My point of view is that EVERY scale relates to the major scale, meaning the sequence of intervals that is: W W H W W W H. So using The Melodic Minor as an example, once you establish the relationship of the Melodic Minor to the Major scale sequence it's easy to understand. Then you apply the same modal concepts to Melodic Minor that you applied to the Major scale. It's just a sequence of intervals.

The Harmonic Minor is simply the Aeolian mode with a natural 7th. It's an easy enough concept...

I submit that if you understand Major harmony and modes, you can understand any scale, because all of those exotic scales come from a single common reference point, and typically all you have to do in change one little note somewhere in the major scale "sequence" to come up with another scale that has peoples heads spinning. I think some people make these concepts hard, because they don't spend enough time with the basic concepts to see how easy it really is.

Of course, executing the scales in a musical way is another game altogether, but the concept of exotic scales is relatively simple. And you don't have to know every scale. Just have enough stuff under your belt to say what you gotta say. Most of us here are not using this stuff on tour anyway and if we were on tour, I wouldn't need to say any of this.

 

[Schlyder]

Hmm, well speaking to the idea of building scales off the major scale, that depends on how you look at it. The parent scale of the Melodic Minor is just a Dorian mode with a natural 7th. The 4th mode of the MM scale happens to be called Lydian Dominant, but it's still just a sequence of notes derived from the Dorian mode with a natural 7th. You simply start from the 4th note and go up.

My point of view is that EVERY scale relates to the major scale, meaning the sequence of intervals that is: W W H W W W H. So using The Melodic Minor as an example, once you establish the relationship of the Melodic Minor to the Major scale sequence it's easy to understand. Then you apply the same modal concepts to Melodic Minor that you applied to the Major scale. It's just a sequence of intervals.

The Harmonic Minor is simply the Aeolian mode with a natural 7th. It's an easy enough concept...

I submit that if you understand Major harmony and modes, you can understand any scale, because all of those exotic scales come from a single common reference point, and typically all you have to do in change one little note somewhere in the major scale "sequence" to come up with another scale that has peoples heads spinning. I think some people make these concepts hard, because they don't spend enough time with the basic concepts to see how easy it really is.

Of course, executing the scales in a musical way is another game altogether, but the concept of exotic scales is relatively simple. And you don't have to know every scale. Just have enough stuff under your belt to say what you gotta say. Most of us here are not using this stuff on tour anyway and if we were on tour, I wouldn't need to say any of this.

Yes.. the Major scale is the main reference point and yardstick that is used for many things in western 12 tone music. It is best to understand it before any other scales/modes, chords or any other harmony is introduced. This is the beginning after learning where the notes are on the instrument and the staff. The major scale... intervals... whole tone/semitone relationship...chromatic scale....That is the first things to learn.... then key sigs, time sigs, circle of 4ths/5ths .....all this, before triads, 7th chords, arpeggios, and the rest of the giant ball of wax that is music theory.

 

[JTE]

Too tired to go through it all again, so here's what I still think...


Preface- To "know" a scale means a LOT more than how to finger it quickly. To really know a scale means:
A. You know how it's built -the whole-step/half-step formula
B. You can determine FOR YOURSELF (and that means figure it out because you know it, not that you've memorized the notes) the correct notes in that scale in any key using the CORREC enharmonics- that means you know WHY F has a Bb and not an A#
B. sub 1- Knowing an A major scale and a C major scale means you know 1/6th of a scale, or only one scale...
C. You can find those notes all over the neck without having to start and end on the root
D. You understand that playing a C Major scale staring on D does not automatically mean you're playing D Dorian. Modes are so often taught wrong that most people who think they know them don't know jack-
E. You can play the scale in any key over at least two octave ascending and descending
F. MOST IMPORTANT you know what the next note of the scale sounds like before you play it!


THEORY PROGRESSION

Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed

2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g. Major is 1,3,5; minor is 1,b3,5; etc.

3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by stacking thirds to build chords.

4.) Learn arpeggios/chord tones

5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (e.g., I-IV-V etc.) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key and to each other.

6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; they’re the V and vi mode)

7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)

8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.


Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play under various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.


"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"

85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you understand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.


Here’s the thing- our job as a bassist is two-fold (and each is EQUALLY important despite the nattering nabobs who proclaim that the rhythmic function is paramount- we are NOT the drums!). That job is to both define the harmony and to connect the strictly rhythmic (i.e. percussion/drums) with the harmonic and melodic content. So we need to know the harmony before we can define it for the others. We need to own that part as much as we own the groove.


(Original concept from mambo4 of Talk Bass)

 

[Mushroo]

Yea it's very strange how some people really over think things. If i'm in c major and someone plays a Am chord I just start the c major scale from the a note (and now it's my root note that I follow) and bang now i'm playing aeolian. Then someone throws me a e minor chord and now I start from the E within the c major scale and bang now i'm playing phrygian mode.

That's really not what "modes" are. It's no wonder so many people are confused about modes when information like this is flying around. (Sorry if it seems like I am singling you out, I just quoted your post as a convenient example.)

If you are playing a song that changes chords from C to Amin to Emin (for example) you aren't playing modes. You aren't playing Ionian to Aeolian to Phrygian mode. You don't need to know what modes are to play that song. It is not a modal song. It is just a song in C with the diatonic chords C, Amin, Emin. There is really no need to overthink it as being anything other than C and following the harmonic changes.

The only time I ever even want to hear the word "modes" is if the composer is very clearly trying to create a specific sound by not using major keys or minor keys. For example a composer might use phrygian to give a song a "Spanish/flamenco" feel. That's where modes enter the conversation. In my opinion.

 

[Rmackner]

That's really not what "modes" are. It's no wonder so many people are confused about modes when information like this is flying around. (Sorry if it seems like I am singling you out, I just quoted your post as a convenient example.)

How so? If the chord progression has a Am chord in the key of C and I play the aeolian scale the song will now have aeolian feel to it. Same as if the progression had a Eminor chord in the key of C, I can play e phrygian and give the song a spanish/flamenco feel. I can use the modes to give the key C different sounds and emotions by using a mode that is supported by the correct progression in C. Like you wouldn't attempt to play phrygian if the progression didn't have a eminor chord. Also every song in western music is a modal song.. it's just most popular music uses the two most common modes: ionian and aeolian, so the other modes may sound a bit to exotic for popular music to some.

 

[Mushroo]

How so? If the chord progression has a Am chord in the key of C and I play the aeolian scale the song will now have aeolian feel to it. Same as if the progression had a Eminor chord in the key of C, I can play e phrygian and give the song a spanish/flamenco feel. I can use the modes to give the key C different sounds and emotions by using a mode that is supported by the correct progression in C. Like you wouldn't attempt to play phrygian if the progression didn't have a eminor chord.

That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I just hear Amin as the vi chord and Emin as iii chord, I don't hear modes at all, or that using these chords automatically gives the song a Spanish/flamenco feel. Your ears tell you different and that's what matters most in music: the sound.

 

[Rmackner]

That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I just hear Amin as the vi chord and Emin as iii chord, I don't hear modes at all, or that using these chords automatically gives the song a Spanish/flamenco feel. Your ears tell you different and that's what matters most in music: the sound.

A mode will sound like the ionian unless its played over the correct chord progression. Playing aeolian over a c major chord will kinda force your ears to follow the c roots but play it over an aminor chord and then you start to hear the difference. You need some type of drone note or chord to play and hear the modes correctly.

 

[smeet]

How so? If the chord progression has a Am chord in the key of C and I play the aeolian scale the song will now have aeolian feel to it. Same as if the progression had a Eminor chord in the key of C, I can play e phrygian and give the song a spanish/flamenco feel. I can use the modes to give the key C different sounds and emotions by using a mode that is supported by the correct progression in C. Like you wouldn't attempt to play phrygian if the progression didn't have a eminor chord. Also every song in western music is a modal song.. it's just most popular music uses the two most common modes: ionian and aeolian, so the other modes may sound a bit to exotic for popular music to some.

You are basically saying that each time the chord changes, so does the key of the song. You can choose to think of it that way, but just be aware that it's considered incorrect by the definitions of western theory. That doesn't make you incorrect in an absolute sense, but if you are using the terminology of diatonic music theory, people will assume your definitions match the standard ones.

 

[Rmackner]

You are basically saying that each time the chord changes, so does the key of the song. You can choose to think of it that way, but just be aware that it's considered incorrect by the definitions of western theory. That doesn't make you incorrect in an absolute sense, but if you are using the terminology of diatonic music theory, people will assume your definitions match the standard ones.

How am I saying with each chord the key changes both modes are in the key of C? I can take the chord progression C G AM F and play the ionian scale and make this sound happy or take the same progression and start it from the E note in the c major scale. This gives me the chords Em Bdim C and Am that I can now play the phrygian or I could of just played aeolian over that C G Am F to give it a sad aoelian feel.

 

[smeet]

You are confusing finger positioning with modes. A mode IS a key. When you play in A aeolian the root of the key is A, not C, so you're changing keys. If the root of the key is not A, you are NOT in A aeolian, you are still in C major. If you don't agree with that, then your definitions are different enough from mine that it would be difficult to have a discussion, and we can agree to disagree.