Teach Chords or Scales first?

[Schlyder]

Let me make this clear... the concept of modes could be completely eradicated from music theory, and nobody, (except maybe metal guitar players) would be any worse off, as far as music education goes.
Modes are almost a complete waste of time in the big picture of music theory education.

 

[Rmackner]

Let me make this clear... the concept of modes could be completely eradicated from music theory, and nobody, (except maybe metal guitar players) would be any worse off, as far as music education goes.
Modes are almost a complete waste of time in the big picture of music theory education.

Yes that's because we all agreed that we liked ionian and aeolian the best and gave them both the key lead role of major and minor.

 

[Schlyder]

Yes that was you responding to a post that said "My point of view is that EVERY scale relates to the major scale, meaning the sequence of intervals that is: W W H W W W H. So using The Melodic Minor as an example, once you establish the relationship of the Melodic Minor to the Major scale sequence it's easy to understand. Then you apply the same modal concepts to Melodic Minor that you applied to the Major scale. It's just a sequence of intervals." Then you said "Yes.. the Major scale is the main reference point and yardstick that is used for many things in western 12 tone music." In western music the major scale came first so it would only make sense that everything else after it used it as a reference right? At least I don't have to settle to insults to get my point across lol...

so how do you get "...every scale is based off modes." from any of that???

 

[Rmackner]

so how do you get "...every scale is based off modes." from any of that???

If I based my movie off a book that means I used the book as a reference point when creating the story (because we all know no movie based off a book is 100% the same haha). Sorry of the term or choice of words confused others. The major scale is the same as the idea of ionian mode and that is the first scale in western music. Every scale after the major(ionian) scale used it as a reference.

 

[Schlyder]

Yes that was you responding to a post that said "My point of view is that EVERY scale relates to the major scale, meaning the sequence of intervals that is: W W H W W W H. So using The Melodic Minor as an example, once you establish the relationship of the Melodic Minor to the Major scale sequence it's easy to understand. Then you apply the same modal concepts to Melodic Minor that you applied to the Major scale. It's just a sequence of intervals." Then you said "Yes.. the Major scale is the main reference point and yardstick that is used for many things in western 12 tone music." In western music the major scale came first so it would only make sense that everything else after it used it as a reference right? At least I don't have to settle to insults to get my point across lol...

Boy oh boy. This is exactly why the OP isn't ready to teach. Because you end up with someone with music theory knowledge like this ^^^^

 

[Mushroo]

Yes that's because we all agreed that we liked ionian and aeolian the best and gave them both the key lead role of major and minor.

Only if you invent a theory that assumes major=Ionian and minor=aeolian. But the problem with that theory is it fails to explain much of the music I know and love. So I discard that theory. When I go to a jam session and the guitarist says "here's a song I wrote in the key of C ionian" I always cringe a little. It's funny singers, pianists and horn players don't use that terminology, only guitarists and the occasional bass guitarist.

 

[Rmackner]

Boy oh boy. This is exactly why the OP isn't ready to teach. Because you end up with someone with music theory knowledge like this ^^^^

It's pretty easy to call someone out with zero facts to back up your statements lol. I shall ignore you to not contribute to your ego stoke lol.

 

[Schlyder]

It's pretty easy to call someone out with zero facts to back up your statements lol. I shall ignore you to not contribute to your ego stoke lol.

Go read some Music Theory textbooks.

 

[Rmackner]

Only if you invent a theory that assumes major=Ionian and minor=aeolian. But the problem with that theory is it fails to explain much of the music I know and love. So I discard that theory. When I go to a jam session and the guitarist says "here's a song I wrote in the key of C ionian" I always cringe a little. It's funny singers, pianists and horn players don't use that terminology, only guitarists and the occasional bass guitarist.

Well theory is just that, it's not proven to be right. You can learn theory out the wazzo but then someone throws you something way outside the box that sounds great to add tension or some emotion but doesn't fit on paper.

 

[Kim Jong Funk]

Only if you invent a theory that assumes major=Ionian and minor=aeolian. But the problem with that theory is it fails to explain much of the music I know and love. So I discard that theory. When I go to a jam session and the guitarist says "here's a song I wrote in the key of C ionian" I always cringe a little. It's funny singers, pianists and horn players don't use that terminology, only guitarists and the occasional bass guitarist.

I have NEVER heard anyone in my life say that before. I almost want to disbelieve you (I don't).

 

[Schlyder]

Well theory is just that, it's not proven to be right. You can learn theory out the wazzo but then someone throws you something way outside the box that sounds great to add tension or some emotion but doesn't fit on paper.

LOL.

 

[Kim Jong Funk]

The difficult part for many people is that even if they learn the modes and scales the REAL issue is that they don't know how to apply it. If I tell someone that F Lydian has all the notes in the key of C major, and is fourth mode of C major, often they will then only relate to F Lydian in terms of "it's part of the C major scale." If were jamming a groove in C major, some people would assume "Well, F Lydian is part of C major, so let me get into proper position on the 8th fret of the A-string and then run the pattern. Oh, wait...it sounds like crap, because I didn't realize that the fourth of the major scale is pretty much a note to be avoided or passed through quickly since it wasn't explained to me properly."

Not learning the "modes as their own scale" and instead learning them as an "alternate form of the corresponding major scale" has tripped a lot of people up that I know (and have taught). They just know scales and modes as those patterns you run up and down the neck as a rote exercise.

And forget about trying explain when chords appear in a song that aren't native to the key...

I would teach scales first so that people understand how chords work and then make sure to hammer home chords before charging into the modes. As a bassist, with a good grasp of just the chord tones, you can pretty much survive alright. If you can at least hack through a a standard in the Real Book just looking at the charts, that's pretty good. Then you can learn to connect everything and become Ray Brown or whatever.

But if the ultimate goal is to be Dee Dee Ramone for you...it's all good. Whatever makes you happy and whatever you enjoy playing.

 

[Mushroo]

Well theory is just that, it's not proven to be right. You can learn theory out the wazzo but then someone throws you something way outside the box that sounds great to add tension or some emotion but doesn't fit on paper.

Or you find a better theory that explains the cycles of tension and release found in actual historical musical examples.

 

[Rmackner]

If were jamming a groove in C major, some people would assume "Well, F Lydian is part of C major, so let me get into proper position on the 8th fret of the A-string and then run the pattern. Oh, wait...it sounds like crap, because I didn't realize that the fourth of the major scale is pretty much a note to be avoided or passed through quickly since it wasn't explained to me properly."

If you want to play F lydian we would take the same approach as playing the key of C in minor (a aeolian). We start the progression of chords from the start of the F note within the key of C. So instead of playing C F G (the I - IV - V chords) and start it on the F note so we get the chords F Bdim and C and now lydian will fit.

 

[Schlyder]

Teaching modes as individual scales and disregarding where they are derived from, is not teaching all the information. That is why the confusion exists.

 

[Don Kasper]

Well theory is just that, it's not proven to be right. You can learn theory out the wazzo but then someone throws you something way outside the box that sounds great to add tension or some emotion but doesn't fit on paper.

"It tells not how music will be written in the future, but how music has been written in the past." - Harmony by Walter Piston, 1941.
A really great read (and listen).
Thanks.

 

[Kim Jong Funk]

If you want to play F lydian we would take the same approach as playing the key of C in minor (a aeolian). We start the progression of chords from the start of the F note within the key of C. So instead of playing C F G (the I - IV - V chords) and start it on the F note so we get the chords F Bdim and C and now lydian will fit.

I think you're reading into what I was saying incorrectly, or I may have not been clear enough. What I meant is that If I were a guitarist and we were jamming in C as in "I'm going to strum a Cmaj7 chord, throw some fills/lines at me" and you're under the assumption that you should play F Lydian over the Cmaj7 chord because it's in the scale and will sound good (which many people wrongly believe as modes weren't explained properly), it will sound like crap when you're ready to bust out that cool lick and stomp an F note out over the Cmaj7 chord.

You're explaining it in a way that most people don't learn. In that sense you're making exactly the point I was trying to make. Many people see the modes as the same scale, just starting on different notes.

 

[Schlyder]

"Many people see the modes as the same scale, just starting on different notes."

That's because they are. That is why they are called "Modes" not "scales"

 

[Rmackner]

Many people see the modes as the same scale, just starting on different notes.

On paper it is the same scale starting on different notes but what humans hear is different flavors that modes offer. A aeolian and C ionian have all the same chords and notes they just start at a different location and thus sound way different to the human ear. Whenever you change the tonic on the scale your building the melody over in whatever key you need to change the order of chords that are supporting that melody also and that's what people forget.

 

[Schlyder]

The reason people confuse the relationship modes have to their "mother" scale, is because some teachers like to teach them as separate entities. They teach all the Modes starting from the same note. Now, this is good for comparing the tonal difference between one mode to the mother scale, but it does SFA in teaching the relationship of the Mode to the mother scale for harmony purposes. That is a big problem....and a main reason for the confusion people have surrounding modes.

When you teach the modes as a derivative of a mother scale, ie:

C Major = C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian.. etc.
.....and using the common number formulas ie: Dorian mode = 12b3456b71 ... etc. rather than thinking in w/h formulas
....and that the Dorian mode is built from the 2nd to the 9th(2) of the Major scale, and Phrygian mode is built from the 3rd to 3rd.. etc.

you have then given the student much of the information he needs regarding modes, and he can begin to apply the modes properly. And the teacher has done his job properly.