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Teaching Band Member Harmony Vocals

#81
bfields said:
I get the frustration with some band member who you may not have personally been able to get to sing harmony parts at rehearsal. Don't over-generalize from that experience.
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I think the question is whether or not you can reasonably expect someone to learn harmony based on some attempts you might make with them in a rehearsal setting. The answer in my experience, after having tried on many occasions, is no. You can't.

If someone wants to build a skill, there are ways to do it. But, as pointed out upstream, that's a different level of effort that someone needs to take on for their own reasons, not because someone in your band would like you to add something. It's their work to do, much in the same way as learning to read notation is their work to do.

If you want to take someone under your wing and mentor them on skill-building, that is a different thing that's going to require sitting down with them outside of the rehearsal setting and doing specific work, and it's going to take time.
 
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#82
LBS-bass said:
I think the question is whether or not you can reasonably expect someone to learn harmony based on some attempts you might make with them in a rehearsal setting. The answer in my experience, after having tried on many occasions, is no. You can't.
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We're in violent agreement there!

If you want to take someone under your wing and mentor them on skill-building, that is a different thing that's going to require sitting down with them outside of the rehearsal setting and doing specific work, and it's going to take time.
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Yup. And a different set of skills from the skills required for harmony-singing itself, probably.

I may be able to sing harmony, but that doesn't mean I have the skills required to listen to another person's singing, hear exactly what they're doing wrong, figure out what they need to do to correct that, and lead them step by step to a solution. That requires a pretty high level of ear skills and teaching and people skills.
 
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#86
For me it's generally learning the harmony as its own line. One thing about an interval is that it works IF the harmony is always the same interval from the melody - if it's always a 5th above or whatever. I learned to harmonize in church singing from a hymnal, where I had to start dropping to the bass when my voice broke as an adolescent. It helped that we sat up front by the piano so I could hear the left hand of the accompaniment pretty clearly. To this day there's a lot of those old hymns and Christmas carols and such where I would have to pause and think to even tell you how the melody goes - the bass part IS the song as far as I'm concerned.
 
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#87
MichelD said:
That is a huge presumption. Whay would "most musicians" be able to do that?
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I think they were talking about the stacking part in the song. Actually I've heard people who didn't harmonize well try to do it on that song and The Weight and can't hold it it steady once the other voices kick in.

I wouldn't say it's any "easier" than any basic harmony part.
 
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#88
MichelD said:
That is a huge presumption. Whay would "most musicians" be able to do that?
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I have played many years and I can not recall one musician who CAN sing not be able to do a simple harmony part, not one. It might be more challenging for some who might tend to drift to the lead line or a more obvious harmony but they will get it.

I said in a previous post that a singing ability is a must. Good pitch and note awareness. Knowing when you are on another harmony and be able to change.

If you can't sing well then yes it is extremely challenging to try to teach someone.
 
#89
kevindahl said:
I have played many years and I can not recall one musician who CAN sing not be able to do a simple harmony part, not one.
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You've been playing with some good ears. I've played many years as well and can count the number of real harmonists on both hands and one foot. Most would just double the melody and call it good, some might accidentally sing a harmony because that's what they hear as the melody (I'm in a band right now with two lead singers who both miss the melody on the chorus to Down By The River and I end up singing it).

You can get a fun and loose choral effect if everyone sort of shouts their way through a part like the Twist and Shout one but that is not really singing; it's almost a shouted part where folks are just singing what comes normally to their ear, and if you asked them to sing something else they couldn't figure it out.
 
#90
kevindahl said:
I have played many years and I can not recall one musician who CAN sing not be able to do a simple harmony part, not one. It might be more challenging for some who might tend to drift to the lead line or a more obvious harmony but they will get it.

I said in a previous post that a singing ability is a must. Good pitch and note awareness. Knowing when you are on another harmony and be able to change.

If you can't sing well then yes it is extremely challenging to try to teach someone.
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The key word there is a musican who "CAN" sing. What about those who cannot sing?
 
#92
MichelD said:
The key word there is a musican who "CAN" sing. What about those who cannot sing?
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My experience is that most people who can sing a melody cannot hear or sing a harmony except by chance. My standards on what constitutes actual singing might be a little higher than some, but we went through this already in another thread.

Shouted parts are not singing. If your musicians are all planning out the specific part they're going to sing and making sure nobody else is landing on the same part and executing that successfully, that is a rudimentary test for harmonic ability. I don't think Twist and Shout generally requires this kind of precision. People will land where they land on a shouted part like this and it's a fun song that doesn't need to be over produced.
 
#93
There is a reason why folks look for other folks that can already sing to join their group. It is a skill like anything else and needs to be learned/developed by practice and experience, and probably not something to go over in a few practices before a show (unless the person can already sing harmony. I can sing harmony but I need to know my notes first and how to mentally find them). I have mentioned earlier here that a lead singer I know couldn't sing harmony to save his life. He just can't hear other intervals.
 
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#94
In fact, singing is my Achilles heel. I've been playing bass since 1978 but am just now seriously considering singing lessons. I have all the gear (plus) I could ever need at this point. Singing lessons would be a great way to spend some GAS bucks. It takes PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE to do most anything decently, and - the voice is the only instrument one is born with. You don't have to buy it or forget it at home or replace the pickups on it. I think that's why people think singing is "easy." We've all had a voice since birth. Personally I think of folks that can sing well as almost more natural musicians than someone that needs another piece of gear to "musish." I am jealous of good singers.
 
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#95
Cave Puppy said:
I've been playing bass since 1978 but am just now seriously considering singing lessons. I have all the gear (plus) I could ever need at this point. Singing lessons would be a great way to spend some GAS bucks. It takes PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE to do most anything decently, and - the voice is the only instrument one is born with.
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Yep, I came to the same conclusion and did a few months of singing lessons.

This was a few years pre-covid and I had a young elementary kid that seemed to bring home a different cold every month, which kind of threw a wrench into things. Also, I wasn't realistic about how much %*$^ practice time it takes to beat your voice into shape. But, I managed to learn some useful stuff anyway. I recommend it.
 
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#96
1. Harmony singing is best learned early on. If you haven't learned it by junior HS it's probably not gonna happen.

2. If you envy those with perfect pitch, consider this: they have now discovered that most people with PP lose it by their 50s. Imagine knowing one way of hearing, and then boom, it's gone, you're just the same as everyone else, and you get to start over learning how to hear.
 
#97
chazolson said:
they have now discovered that most people with PP lose it by their 50s. Imagine knowing one way of hearing, and then boom, it's gone, you're just the same as everyone else, and you get to start over learning how to hear.
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Not doubting you but I'd love to see those studies. Particularly because I'm wondering if this pertains to everyone or just those who do not continue to do music regularly.
 
#99
chazolson said:
There is a Rick Beato video on YouTube where he discusses this, and interviews a musician who had PP since childhood and lost it. He was very frustrated, to say the least.
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The LS in one of my bands has perfect pitch and he's just hitting his 50's. I hope he doesn't lose that because it's very useful for us in figuring out songs to mix together!
 
#100
I have to admit that I only started hearing chords as collections of distinct voices after listening to music under the influence of psychedelics. But it's an insight that has served me well in the decades since.

There are clearly other ways of getting there, but…it was the 70s.
 
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