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Tech 21 VT Bass DI + Compression

VSUBass

VSUBass

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May 27, 2014
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Disclosures
Closures are dumb, stupid & not very smart
#1
A question and another question.

I don't own any effects boxes but that's a result of me being told in my yute Keep-It-Stupid-Simple...or something like that. :) But noodling around this forum has incited the EAS in me and the thread on the Electro Harmonix B9 really got me interested--those sounds would be SO fun to play around with! But, based upon what I've learned, or think I've learned here, I thought I'd start with a more "practical" or across-the-spectrum pedal like a compressor or tone-shaping preamp.

Other back-story/relevant info: after fiddling around some more with the compressor and such on my Carvin MB10 I accidentally skidded into a/the sound I like as my basic sound. Old school thump with a little more sustain than is generally attributed to old school thump is how I'd describe it. Part of that is from the bass of course. So I've kind of landed on the Tech 21 VT Bass DI (link provided just to clarify which one) as my likely victim. From the same page, currently last review:

(The VTBDI seems to have incipient compression in any setting thus rendering individual notes more even with each other. This is only slightly perceptible, and I view it as a plus.) USA-manufactured Ampeg solid state amps I have owned, particularly the SVT 3, exhibit this trait in a much less musical manner. The Tech 21 box turns that into a positive by not audibly distorting. Bottom line is I can use the 'VT without additional compression. This is very nice. The tones are deep,powerful, and compact. Perfect for ensemble. Plenty of push. Personally, I prefer a more traditional timbre;

(I could have stopped at the BOLDED line)

I may be dumb but I'm not simple, no, wait--oh screw it! I know that it being a website that sells stuff they're not apt to put up negative reviews and probably try to resolve the issue first so I do take these with a large Siberian Salt Mine
BUT how likely/accurate/useful etc do you think the line is about "without additional compression"? Yes, I know I'm not using additional compression beyond the Carvin supplied one but I'm curious what those with more experience and better ears than myself think about that assessment or opinion.

Also I just got an Analysis Plus cable, the yellow one, just below their "I'm a professional and can spend $500 bones on a cable" model so it was ~$120 bones and it does sound to be an improvement over my previous-but-now-dead Planet Waves cord. So I'm loathe to put an inferior cable in that signal path but I'm also loathe to plunk down another $120 on top of the $209+ for the Tech 21 VT Bass DI. They do have the Analysis Plus Black Oval - Pedal Coupler Cable Pair for $37+ but they don't appear to be the same cable as the longer, more expensive one(s). Is it just not important because they are so short or would I experience a loss of sound quality with them?

Lots of words for a couple of simple questions and if you read this far--thank-you! If you answer--Double Thanks!
 
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#4
All distortion/fuzz/overdrive is, by definition, compression. It's intriguing that he says it compresses even with zero distortion settings. Maybe it does, or maybe there just really is no zero distortion setting. In any case, it's hard to imagine that it's doing enough comp duties to forgo a separate one. I like my notes evened out pretty well.

As far as your cable adventures... I think all that stuff's voodoo. A cable is a cable.
 
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#9
Nope, only V1 and VT Deluxe. Still got the VTD. I thought they behaved and sounded identically, except of course the VTD saves presets. To be honest, I'm not really interested in the VT past the VTD.
 
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#11
I'm very lucky and fortunate! But I'll give it up for the VT. When it first came out, I never thought SS technology could ever get that close to the real thing. It's not a perfect pedal, and I'll take my REDDI or the DI's in my tubers any day of the week over it, but it does a great job of mimicking the different sounds of SVT's and B-15's for less than $200...just have to dial your expectations back a little. I use it for dirt on my electric and a splitter/EQ for my upright, but when I play clean, I turn it off ;)
 
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#12
Here's the deal. Because the SansAmp circuit emulates a vintage tube amp there is a natural inherent compression which is the byproduct of distortion. A B15 has it, as does a Fender Bassman etc. The difference being is that the SansAmp's distortion is not "volume" dependent like it is on a tube amp. If you set the pedal really clean with a good amount of volume available it should have a similar amount of headroom available as the vintage tube amps it emulates. This is assuming the pedal is not being hit with a really high output bass and super aggressive playing style.

The other thing to consider is that if you are going into the front end of an amp you may be over driving the amp's input. I can assure you that if you get the chance to play the VT Bass 1000 or VT 1969 you wouldn't find the VT has any less headroom than an actual SVT.

Comparing it to the Reddi is really an apples to oranges comparison. The Reddi is designed as a clean DI with added warmth and transparency according to their literature. The level control only controls volume on that box it's not designed to add distortion. The VT Bass in comparison is designed to emulate the sound of a "recorded" vintage tube with the inclusion of the distortion characteristics as well as speaker simulation.

I played guitar yesterday on the Broadway Musical Show "Motown" and the Reddi is the DI that is used for bass in that show. I've been playing on that show off and on since it began so I'm pretty familiar with the sound of that DI. If you prefer it to our product that's totally cool but they are really very differently designed and sounding products.
 
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#13
Chris, I think you make some legit points, but I have used the VT dead clean with a passive bass with "normal" output and I still hear the REDDI and my tube amps (which also run dead clean) as less compressed. Still, it's a very very small amount at that point and really only kicks in when I play my hardest, and quite frankly, I would expect that from an all-SS tube emulating device, and I don't necessarily see it as a bag on the VT or other Character pedals.

And you are correct that the REDDI and VT are very different products. My comment about bypassing the VT for clean sounds was also not meant as a bag on it. I was one of the earliest supporters of the Character series on here, and even though I had a period where I wasn't using it and just started using it regularly again, I always had a lot of respect for Tech 21 making a pedal that sounds that close to the real thing. But the REDDI is basically a clean running tube amp in DI form, and hey, what can I tell you?

So don't worry...I have a couple small niggles with the VT because I'm a tube snob, but overall I still believe it's one of the more groundbreaking products to ever come out, so I'm still on your side ;)
 
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#14
Ampeg B15 dead clean? Those amps have very little head room. If you prefer the Reddi as a DI that's totally cool. In order to compare the VT Bass as a DI to the Reddi you need to turn off the SansAmp circuit which means put the unit in bypass. The Reddi is NOT an amp emulator. There is no EQ network, speaker sim, overdrive or distortion available. The control is only for level. When you say you used the VT Bass "dead clean" how was it set in terms of the Character control and Drive? I think sometimes you want the VT Bass to do what the Reddi does but it wasn't designed to do that any more than the Reddi could do what the VT Bass does. Do you know what I'm saying? I have the Groove Tube "Brick" in my home studio and that is much more closely related to the Reddi than any of our products.

The Reddi is obviously a quality tube driven DI but it is very much a traditional DI whereas our SansAmp DI products are DI's as well as amp emulators.

From Reddi's website:

It is important to note that the REDDI is not a high-gain device! Its gain structure has been painstakingly engineered to avoid the slightest compromise in sound quality. Inspired by the glorious sound of the Ampeg B-15 tube bass amp, REDDI’s 6N1-P tube-driven amplifier feeds signal directly into a hefty custom output transformer by Cinemag – a key component to providing a harmonically rich tone.

The REDDI’s all-tube circuitry will enhance the character of any electrified instrument run through it – not just bass! Plug the pickup of an acoustic guitar through REDDI to add depth and fullness to its tone. Capture and improve all the richness and life of an electric piano or analog synthesizer. Warm up sterile sounding digital keyboards or drum machines by strapping a REDDI across their output – or two, for stereo! The uses are literally endless

Would you play an acoustic guitar, keyboard or drum machine through your Ampeg B15 or SVT and expect it to work as well as going through a mixing console and full range system? Probably not. This is what I mean. The Reddi is a DI. Not to comment on their marketing but how does a DI with one tube and one control manage to sound like an Ampeg B-15 and an SVT? Most would argue that those two amps don't have that much in common.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time I'm just trying to clarify the difference between these two very different products. The only products I can think of off hand that relate to our SansAmp DI's are the MXR and Aguilar. The Reddi is better compared to other tube DI's like the Radial Firefly, Demeter, Summit Audio, Brick, Universal Audio Etc.
 
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#15
tech21nyc said:
Ampeg B15 dead clean? Those amps have very little head room.
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But they do have some. It's very possible to run a B-15 dead clean, especially if you hook up a DI to its speaker out and go into the board. (NOTE: For those who don't know, you still need to have a speaker or dummy load hooked up to do this or you will blow the output transformer).

If you prefer the Reddi as a DI that's totally cool. In order to compare the VT Bass as a DI to the Reddi you need to turn off the SansAmp circuit which means put the unit in bypass. The Reddi is NOT an amp emulator. There is no EQ network, speaker sim, overdrive or distortion available. The control is only for level. When you say you used the VT Bass "dead clean" how was it set in terms of the Character control and Drive? I think sometimes you want the VT Bass to do what the Reddi does but it wasn't designed to do that any more than the Reddi could do what the VT Bass does. Do you know what I'm saying? I have the Groove Tube "Brick" in my home studio and that is much more closely related to the Reddi than any of our products.
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Character at slightly past noon, drive off. Is that "dead clean" on a technical level? Probably not, but it sounds like it to me. And of course I don't expect for one to do what the other does, but it's a lot of fun to see how close they can get and how much they have in common.

Would you play an acoustic guitar, keyboard or drum machine through your Ampeg B15 or SVT and expect it to work as well as going through a mixing console and full range system? Probably not. This is what I mean. The Reddi is a DI. Not to comment on their marketing but how does a DI with one tube and one control manage to sound like an Ampeg B-15 and an SVT? Most would argue that those two amps don't have that much in common.
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DI an SVT or B-15 up to a PA system through its output transformer and tell me you wouldn't love it on acoustic, keyboard or drum machine ;) That's the same principle the REDDI works on. And most would argue that a B-15 and SVT don't have much in common unless they heard my SVT settings. True, when nooned they sound different, but not when you work the EQ controls. And for me, the REDDI sounds like a clean running B-15 set to near-flat response. I don't know how they did it, but they did it.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time I'm just trying to clarify the difference between these two very different products. The only products I can think of off hand that relate to our SansAmp DI's are the MXR and Aguilar. The Reddi is better compared to other tube DI's like the Radial Firefly, Demeter, Summit Audio, Brick, Universal Audio Etc.
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True. I don't think there was any confusion on my part that they're two different products, though ;)
 
#16
Character at slightly past noon is not dead clean as that starts to boost the signal. You also didn't mention how the tone controls were set on your B15. Normally on that amp when you set the controls to where you think it sounds good you are probably creating a notch in the midrange which will reduce the gain and give you a bit more headroom. The clean tones on the VT Bass are with the Character below noon. To do the best comparison it would be best to set the tone the same for the VT Bass as the B15 which we can do here with the FFT. Also you're forgetting the fact that the B15 and SVT's distortion characteristics are volume dependent. On the VT Bass the distortion characteristics are not dependent on the volume and this tends to be where players get tripped up.

I wouldn't suggest it with an SVT dues to the high output but you could easily run your B15 into a load box and then run the line out only so you don't hear the actual amp. You would be surprised how once you eliminate the actual speaker from the equation how things change. I do this all the time with guitar amps and when you slave that line out signal of an actual amp it "seems" more compressed because the distortion is no longer dependent upon actual speaker output.

So if you can just take the line out of your amps from the padded down speaker output with something like a Countryman DI why use the Reddi at all? The Reddi sounds just like the Ampeg's with their volumes at 9 o'clock, noon, 3 o'clock? With the bass and treble where, ultra lo, ultra hi mid band set where? Sorry it doesn't make sense except in a very narrow use.
 
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#17
tech21nyc said:
Character at slightly past noon is not dead clean as that starts to boost the signal. You also didn't mention how the tone controls were set on your B15. Normally on that amp when you set the controls to where you think it sounds good you are probably creating a notch in the midrange which will reduce the gain and give you a bit more headroom. The clean tones on the VT Bass are with the Character below noon. To do the best comparison it would be best to set the tone the same for the VT Bass as the B15 which we can do here with the FFT. Also you're forgetting the fact that the B15 and SVT's distortion characteristics are volume dependent. On the VT Bass the distortion characteristics are not dependent on the volume and this tends to be where players get tripped up.
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I am? What am I getting tripped up on, exactly? I knew that. I also sort of figured by the info in the manual and the discussions on here that the Character does hint at distorting slightly past noon. Still sounds clean to me, though.

I wouldn't suggest it with an SVT dues to the high output but you could easily run your B15 into a load box and then run the line out only so you don't hear the actual amp. You would be surprised how once you eliminate the actual speaker from the equation how things change. I do this all the time with guitar amps and when you slave that line out signal of an actual amp it "seems" more compressed because the distortion is no longer dependent upon actual speaker output.
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Could have sworn I just said the same thing to you using different words ;)

So if you can just take the line out of your amps from the padded down speaker output with something like a Countryman DI why use the Reddi at all? The Reddi sounds just like the Ampeg's with their volumes at 9 o'clock, noon, 3 o'clock? With the bass and treble where, ultra lo, ultra hi mid band set where? Sorry it doesn't make sense except in a very narrow use.
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Except if I make a slight change on my amp it changes pretty drastically in the PA, especially where the volume knob's concerned. Anyway, the tone settings are unimportant. I already told you the REDDI sounds to me like a B-15 or SVT set for clean near-flat response. Those settings are different on each amp, and just like I can change the sounds on my Ampeg tube amps with the tone knobs, I can plug the REDDI into a board or EQ and do the same thing.

So you've thoroughly confused me now. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. All I said is that I hear compression in the VT running clean that I don't hear in the tube amps and DI I use that are running clean. Are you saying that the little bit of compression I hear is a result of my setting the Character slightly past noon and that I wouldn't hear it if it wasn't? OK, fair enough. I'd be willing to test that theory out tonight or tomorrow when I get some time.
 
#18
For me, the speaker sim defeat button was the best thing to happen to the VT line. Not to say that it sounds bad with it engaged, but I liked the pedal so much more after I tried a VT v2 and unpressed that button.

On a more relevant note, I'll be running an Ovnilabs Smoothie into a VTDI on a small board for my trio in a day or so when the Smoothie arrives. I'll post my results.
 
#19
JimmyM said:
I am? What am I getting tripped up on, exactly? I knew that. I also sort of figured by the info in the manual and the discussions on here that the Character does hint at distorting slightly past noon. Still sounds clean to me, though.


Could have sworn I just said the same thing to you using different words ;)


Except if I make a slight change on my amp it changes pretty drastically in the PA, especially where the volume knob's concerned. Anyway, the tone settings are unimportant. I already told you the REDDI sounds to me like a B-15 or SVT set for clean near-flat response. Those settings are different on each amp, and just like I can change the sounds on my Ampeg tube amps with the tone knobs, I can plug the REDDI into a board or EQ and do the same thing.

So you've thoroughly confused me now. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. All I said is that I hear compression in the VT running clean that I don't hear in the tube amps and DI I use that are running clean. Are you saying that the little bit of compression I hear is a result of my setting the Character slightly past noon and that I wouldn't hear it if it wasn't? OK, fair enough. I'd be willing to test that theory out tonight or tomorrow when I get some time.
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\

First off how are you comparing these two products? With you bass into the mixing board?

I spoke with Andrew our designer. He says that there is no compression circuit in the VT Bass. You need a non linear module for a compression circuit. The unit when run clean will NOT compress. The input is flat and unity gain. If you run a signal generator through the unit set flat and clean through an oscilloscope at (-10dB, -20dB, 0dB and +4dB) you will get identical signals at the input and output. With a normal output passive bass there should never be an issue. If the output of the bass is too hot you will hear distortion not compression.

Once again, if you like the Reddi as a DI that's fine but the VT Bass is designed to emulate the sound of a vintage tube "mic'd bass amp" not the uncompensated line out of a flat tube amp. The Reddi has no distortion circuit, no adjustable EQ or speaker emulation.

You might be better off trying our VT Bass DI as that has an uncompensated amp emulated output. This is different than the speaker sim bypass mode of the VT Bass (V2). On that unit the speaker sim is bypassed but there is a 6dB per octave high cut roll off in its place.

On the VT Bass pedal with the speaker sim engaged (character at noon and drive around minimum) flat response will be:

Low 1:30
Mid 1:30
High 9:30-10

The Level control has no effect on the EQ. High levels of the Drive control will increase upper harmonics
 
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#20
Well I guess Andrew would know since he started the company ;) Never did get time to try it out yet but I'll take his word for it. But I'm pretty happy with my rig as is, and I need the splitting, presets and overdrive of the VTD, so I think it's actually the right one for me.
 
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