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Tempo fluctuations: How much is tolerable?

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#43
LowG said:
Ha! 2 pages only one person answered the question! I love the internet
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Yes, thank you for noting this, although I am finding some the answers useful and helpful.

Since no one has an idea what kind of tempo variations I'm talking about, I'll go ahead and say it. My sense of "feel" picks up at about +/- 2 BPM. So if he's starting at 120 and drifts to 118 or 122, I will notice that. But I will not generally stop to coach him on this until he gets to about +/- 4 which is where it starts to feel intolerable for me as a player.

As for ditching him, that's not happening, since I'm married to him and I'm trying to coach him in areas where he hasn't had a lot of good instruction. I've watched him go from a player so green that I wouldn't really consider us working together to someone who worked incredibly hard over the past year to really develop and he's begin to come into his own in a very impressive way. But he has gaps which I believe are mainly due to inattentiveness, and I'm trying to bring these things into his awareness. We work together a few times a week and I will stop him and point out the areas where he needs a bit of coaching. For many years he did not want me to advise him but it's the old thing where the more you know the more you realize you don't know and now he is asking for my help to bring him to the next level.

So, it's all good. I just don't know if I'm being too hard on him with these tempo variations. I would like to stop him at +/- 3 but I feel that's asking a lot. I don't want him to feel like he's required to be a machine.
 
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#44
LBS-bass said:
Yes, thank you for noting this, although I am finding some the answers useful and helpful.

Since no one has an idea what kind of tempo variations I'm talking about, I'll go ahead and say it. My sense of "feel" picks up at about +/- 2 BPM. So if he's starting at 120 and drifts to 118 or 122, I will notice that. But I will not generally stop to coach him on this until he gets to about +/- 4 which is where it starts to feel intolerable for me as a player.

As for ditching him, that's not happening, since I'm married to him and I'm trying to coach him in areas where he hasn't had a lot of good instruction. I've watched him go from a player so green that I wouldn't really consider us working together to someone who worked incredibly hard over the past year to really develop and he's begin to come into his own in a very impressive way. But he has gaps which I believe are mainly due to inattentiveness, and I'm trying to bring these things into his awareness. We work together a few times a week and I will stop him and point out the areas where he needs a bit of coaching. For many years he did not want me to advise him but it's the old thing where the more you know the more you realize you don't know and now he is asking for my help to bring him to the next level.

So, it's all good. I just don't know if I'm being too hard on him with these tempo variations. I would like to stop him at +/- 3 but I feel that's asking a lot.
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Whoa… married to him! I don’t know, I think you’re maybe a little hard on him for that little of a fluctuation. Fine line between coaching and nitpicking ;) At least he’s trying.
 
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#48
Iristone said:
When I play the drums I tend to rush a bit on fills too. If I pull it back a bit intentionally it gets passably accurate. If it'd be possible to rehearse or gig with a metronome in the IEM track it'd be great!
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No reason you can’t. Seen quite a few bands do it. Honestly I am not a fan of it and I sometimes intentionally speed up tempos during fills when I program drums ( used to play drums but it’s been years, plus it’s difficult to do it at home on the cheap). But I have seen it done by many bands, though usually only the drummer gets it. I guess it’s hard to change songs in the list on the fly though.
 
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#49
It's not the drummer alone who needs to keep time. It is everyone.
If tempo fluctuates more than I like, I tend to say 'we' rather than 'you' as that is how it usually works. (imho)

When it is the drummer who is the obvious cause of whatever timing issues there may be, I tend to just tellthem to breathe and relax. Think of chocolate, fried chicken, beer or whatever else it is he or she likes. That often helps.
This does not onlyapplie to dealing with drummers. :)
 
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#50
Within some bouderies there has to be a variation in tempo. Busy things sometimes benefit from a slightly faster tempo and when you cut back to basics after a busy part the effect can be extra dramatic if the tempo drops slightly.
But all of this needs to be rather conscious, not by accident. And the whole band needs to follow. So maybe it's you who needs the train to follow your drummer. Maybe try this for a couple off weeks and see what happens.
A lot off old school rock songs start in a tempo but once the solo's start they go all over the place. Or in climactic bridge parts they often speed up.
If they wouldn't do this they would be just another modern pop studio song...
 
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#51
I seem to recall Jeff Berlin being rather vocal against the use of metronomes, as they don't help you develop your inner timing.

I also recall watching a Victor Wooten video at a bass clinic where he demonstrates developing your inner timing. I believe he got someone to operate a metronome set to click on the '1' of a bar of 4 beats, and he riffed over the top. Then the metronome was muted whilst he kept playing and brought back in after a few bars and he was pretty much bang on, even after playing syncopated, off the beat rhythms and triplets etc.

Your drummer could probably do the same thing playing along to tracks, muting them partway through and bringing them back in to see if he's sped up or slowed down.

It may be worth trying this yourself as well, to test how good your timing actually is.

PS, it might also be worth having a drum and bass only rehearsal to really work on this side of the music, without the distraction of the rest of the band. It will give you a chance for you both to lock in
 
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#53
My take on it - having also played drums for a couple of years in a classic rock cover band:
I think it depends on the music style, the specific songs and how 'perfect' you want to play music as a band.
2 BPM deviation around 120 BPM doesn't seem like a big problem to me. But it could be for a 90 BPM song.
Speeding up some classic rock songs can stimulate an audience.

BTW: I also think that locking in requires some flexibility from both the bass player and drummer.
If either one is too rigid, there is no lock and it doesn't sound good.

I played drums a couple of times with a band that had an experienced bass player but who only focused on his part.
I remember playing Bon Jovi's Living on a prayer and his bass line was always walking around my drum part.
It might have been off by just a fraction but it sounded like crap (to me). He didn't even hear it.
Playing a bit faster or slower would have been fine for me but playing out of sync not.
 
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#54
LBS-bass said:
...
I'm not saying what that level is yet, because I don't know if I'm out of bounds for what most people would say is tolerable, and I want your unvarnished views.
...
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Reading some of the comments in this (and other similar) thread and looking back over the years I have probably been fortunate to have always worked with reliable drummers. At the same time, I've auditioned plenty that are as you describe, and it drives me nuts.

Right now, I don't have a drummer in my current band, and to be honest I've no intention of having one. I produce backing tracks for the 95% of songs that need drums and percussion and additional sequenced stuff like strings and orchestral arrangements, extra synth layers, special effects etc.

Just before lockdown we decided to 'test the water' and audition a drummer. Local guy with a Roland electronic kit. Said he knew many of the songs we play. I thought this would be great as we would be able to play through stuff straight away and at reasonable volume. Not a chance! Rather than play through the PA he insisted on using a Roland PM-200 facing the room from in front of the kick pad. We decided to start with a track running then fade it out as he caught the tempo, feel and dynamics. He lasted about 4 bars before drifting off and losing the feel. Sometimes early, sometimes late, rarely in the middle. Not only that, he played so loud that he buried everything else.

Needless to say I am still making tracks! I think I've become quite adept at getting a good human feel into these tracks but it does take time...

LBS-bass said:
Since no one has an idea what kind of tempo variations I'm talking about, I'll go ahead and say it. My sense of "feel" picks up at about +/- 2 BPM. So if he's starting at 120 and drifts to 118 or 122, I will notice that. But I will not generally stop to coach him on this until he gets to about +/- 4 which is where it starts to feel intolerable for me as a player.
...
Click to expand...

Interesting. Some of the songs we play were obviously recorded originally to strict clicks in the studio, so it is easy to create tracks that fit those. Some of the songs pre-date widespread use of those studio techniques and they just don't work with tight quanitisation. And some of them go way beyond ±2 BPM.

For example, Talk of the Town, by The Pretenders varies anywhere between 132 and 135.8. It doesn't sound like much but without the ebb and flow the song feels rushed.
upload_2021-10-21_9-28-49.png


Erma Franklin's 'Piece of My Heart' goes from 77 to 84 and back again a couple of times. The changes are more integral to the song than the Pretenders song, and it fails miserably when done at constant tempo, IMHO.
upload_2021-10-21_9-34-30.png


Supertramp's Logical Song starts at a leisurely 112 and hits a (temporary) high of 125 before closing at 122:
upload_2021-10-21_9-41-18.png


Mick Fleetwood is one of the hardest to emulate, but he is very deliberate and I'm really starting to get a feel for what he is all about. We now have 4 Fleetwood Mac songs in the set list - 3 of which have backing tracks - and they all disintegrate if you attempt to quantise them. To the casual listener, 'Dreams' sounds almost metronomic, but in truth it flows between 117 and 121. Here's just one section:
upload_2021-10-21_9-49-35.png


Patti Smith's 'Because the Night' just keeps pushing forwards - starts at 110 and ends at 128!
upload_2021-10-21_10-6-27.png


I guess what I'm trying to say is that ±2 is more than enough to affect the feel of something and therefore, at face value, you are not being intolerant. But it also seems to me that ±2 (or more) is the sort of fluctuation that can actually contribute positive things provided it is deliberate and 'musical', which in turn makes it predictable. If the fluctuations are random, rapid and unrelated to the needs of the music then I fully understand your frustration and I too would probably feel the need to complain.

YMMV
 
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#55
packhowitzer said:
As usual, Rick Beato has an excellent and well-explained treatise on a subject that is very similar to the topic of this thread. Do yourself a favor and take ten minutes to watch this vid. It shows how the natural swing of human timing has a certain hard-to-define quality that a perfectly locked in tempo just can't quite replicate.

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Well I feel like a dummy as THIS was the video I meant to post. My apologies to those that spent time watching the other one on my suggestion. It was still a good vid in my opinion, but this was the one I meant to post and unfortunately editing is locked for my original post. I humbly present this corrected link:

 
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#56
I did solo midi/sequenced gigs for about ten years and my timing ,because of it, is like a Swiss watch. I can't handle cats that can't keep a tempo even when they're playing to a click. A lot of drummers ,no matter how well they can hold a groove down, that I've played with..as soon as they come out of a fill are usually speeding up or dragging down the tempo. Irritating as hell.
Or when I've recorded tunes to a click and know the timings good and have the drummer come do his parts and still manage to just lose the tempo. I don't know the solution is for those types. I've never found it.
 
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#57
MasterG said:
I did solo midi/sequenced gigs for about ten years and my timing ,because of it, is like a Swiss watch. I can't handle cats that can't keep a tempo even when they're playing to a click. A lot of drummers ,no matter how well they can hold a groove down, that I've played with..as soon as they come out of a fill are usually speeding up or dragging down the tempo. Irritating as hell.
Or when I've recorded tunes to a click and know the timings good and have the drummer come do his parts and still manage to just lose the tempo. I don't know the solution is for those types. I've never found it.
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In this excample you need to know drummers are not midi sequencers or so. As you are not a robot. ANde the best music is not robotic.
So feel the music instead of the metronome. Feel the fill of the drummer and follow the slow down or speed up. That's grooving, you do this together not just 1 person to a metronome and the others need to follow.

BUT there are limits. To much is to much, but that is what makes a good rythm section. Not playing 120bpm from beginning to end, but playing the song...
 
#60
Jason Hollar said:
I know this is older technology replaced by apps and such … but a couple of the best drummers I’ve worked with had these Beat Bugs so they could keep their time in check without the hassle of a click:

Beat Bug 3

Im surprised more drummers don’t use these types of devices.
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I own a Tempo REF (the Beat Bug's brother) and used it for a while.
It is a nice tool as it isn't as rigid as a click but still provides a tempo guide.

Downsides / user guide: usually you put it on the snare so it will indicate the BPM of the (loudest) snare hits.
For a lot of songs that will be on 2 and 4 so it will read 60 when playing at (around) 120 BPM.
If it reads 59, you're playing around 117-118 BPM, it is not extremely accurate.
It gets thrown off when deviating from 2 and 4 or doing fills on the snare.
And it won't get locked into the previous tempo, it just gives you the current BPM.

BTW: it seems the company went out of business last year, maybe there are alternatives.
For a click alternative, there is the Soundbrenner vibrating 'click watch'.
 
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