Tempo fluctuations: How much is tolerable?

[brianrost]

He has practiced with a metronome for years and he's gotten very good at keeping in time with a click; this is a problem that he has in playing freestyle without assistance of that sort, so I don't think using a metronome or click at this stage is going to fix this.

This is the root of the infamous Jeff Berlin controversy: playing along with a constant reference (metronome, click, recordings) doesn't mean you have good time, you are just used to playing to a reference.

I'm sure many drum instructors have their own exercises, but one I was taught by Ed Friedland (it's now in one of his books) is to set up a metronome or other click reference to play at 1/4 the actual tempo. So there are four variations CLICK-2-3-4, then 1-CLICK-3-4, then 1-2-CLICK-4, then 1-2-3-CLICK. The player should play something simple enough that they do not need to think about it (a boom-bap 4/4 rock beat is fine) and concentrate on landing dead on the click every time for 5 minutes in each of the 4 cases. Moving the click off the 1 is where things really get interesting. This will at least demonstrate to the player whether or not they can hold steady time. Once the player is solid with playing a simple pattern at a slow tempo (say 60 bpm), the tempo can be increased if necessary. It's an exercise that can be revisited over the years just as a check-up.

 

[31HZ]

Or Stewart Copland!

"TOO FAST!" --Andy Summers, on pretty much every Police concert bootleg that was ever made

 

[31HZ]

This is the root of the infamous Jeff Berlin controversy: playing along with a constant reference (metronome, click, recordings) doesn't mean you have good time, you are just used to playing to a reference.

I'm sure many drum instructors have their own exercises, but one I was taught by Ed Friedland (it's now in one of his books) is to set up a metronome or other click reference to play at 1/4 the actual tempo. So there are four variations CLICK-2-3-4, then 1-CLICK-3-4, then 1-2-CLICK-4, then 1-2-3-CLICK. The player should play something simple enough that they do not need to think about it (a boom-bap 4/4 rock beat is fine) and concentrate on landing dead on the click every time for 5 minutes in each of the 4 cases. Moving the click off the 1 is where things really get interesting. This will at least demonstrate to the player whether or not they can hold steady time. Once the player is solid with playing a simple pattern at a slow tempo (say 60 bpm), the tempo can be increased if necessary. It's an exercise that can be revisited over the years just as a check-up.

Oh man. So much THIS.

This is the way.

Move it off of the quarter-note intervals (i.e. put the click on the 2-ee), and then things start to get really good.

 

[jchrisk1]

I'm pretty sensitive to tempo changes as well, I can hear it change as soon as the first hi-hat hit is off tempo. I can tolerate up to about 5 bpm's before I start getting their attention about it. One drummer I play with speeds up occasionally, but he listens and reigns it back in quickly, so it's not really a problem. My old drummer would speed up so much he quickly played himself right out of the band. I'm talking 20-25 bpm's! It used to drive me nuts!

 

[40Hz]

Depends on the genre, the song, and sometimes the passage being played.

Some songs and styles (prog, some rock, metal) benefit from razor-like precision. Others (blues, R&B, Motown, soul, some jazz) sound better with a more ‘humanized’ feel.

I’m a bug for doing it right. And I’m very sensitive to tempo fluctuations. But I’m comfortable with tempo variations. Possibly because in something like blues or Motown you need to sync and follow with the vocalist since their voice is what’s steering the ship.

Somewhere between all the pitch and beat correction that are (to me) the bane of a much of today’s recorded music, and some drunken garage band’s slop, there’s a happy medium.

I like the time and group to be tight. But not to the point where it’s so mechanical that you might as well just use a drum machine or loops when you’re playing live. For small home studio recordings you often need to use drum loops since most home and small project studios lack the equipment and facilities to adequately mike drums well enough to get a good drum track down. Which is why you want your drummer to be as adept at programming drum loops as she or he is at playing them. They feel less threatened that way.

So for me, the bottom line is that rhythmic accuracy is essential. But metronomic precision isn’t always.

Just my 2¢ anyway.

 

[mdlewis]

Not being able to play at tempo is a problem, but I feel that a click track is not an ideal solution. I can always tell when a band is playing to one, to me, it sounds mechanical, and unless this is the intention, it's subpar.

Lately, do to the lack of gigs, I've been doing a lot of recording these days, and analyzing older music that I like. Logic (the program) allows me to run a beat analysis almost instantly on most audio content. I can filter the input signal to highlight the kick or the bass or guitar and quickly look at the tempo changes and beats.

What I have found most interesting is that with a lot of music I really enjoy, there is a natural swell and ebb to the tempos, and this extends even to beat divisions and subdivisions. This reinforces the emotional content of the music. Least you think I'm talking highbrow here, this includes a lot of 60's pop hits, too, but seems to have gone by the wayside once we entered the digital age. This is very difficult to replicate unless you have trained musicians in the same room actively listening to one another as they are performing. But, for me, this is where live music excels. For perfection to an arbitrary grid, programmatic music is far superior (because it is always perfect). But I don't care for much of that outside of dance music.

For a drummer who can't keep to tempo, there may be a number of issues. He may be physically incapable of it (so more practice is required) or maybe he needs to practice active listening. One thing that helps develop these skills is something I actually hate - jamming. But it does help.

 

[rtslinger]

in ears click track great solution imo

 

[DirtDog]

I’ve found myself saying to my drummer (in rehearsal) “too fast” or “too draggy” only to have him come back and tell me “nope that’s the tempo, I’m playing along with the click”.

It’s interesting what our senses tell us in the moment without an objective measurement. Same with the old “too loud” comments…. Not according to my SPL meter bub!

 

[Dirk Diggler]

The answer would be none, it's literally their job.

Nothing worse than a drummer dragging or rushing fills, horrible.

And worst of all, then us bass players have to work twice as hard to hold things on tempo.

 

[fretno]

it happens , especially live , there will be push & pull from all the players . The trick is to listen and adapt or in some cases do nothing but keep on forward . Like for ex if someone breaks a string or drops a stick . Keep going .

I learned the foot tap at a very young age in music classes , then we learned the "light tap" so the class didn't over power the stage lol . For folks that didn't have that learning experience it can be tough to lock in . I would suggest he just practice to solid straight forward music , he will eventually get it . This is a must learn for any rock drummer and it's about as straight and solid as you could ever hope for .

 

[Nev375]

I don't mind tempo fluctuations if it fits the feel of the song. In fact, I wish there was more of that. Working to click tracks and autotune has stripped music of expression.

More bands need to be studying microtonal harmonies and breaking out of this paradigm of computer-quantized "perfect" music.

 

[31HZ]

Reading deeper into the comments, I think it very important to distinguish between the push/pull of where the kick sits relative to the snare (i.e. Bonham, etc., which happens best outside of a quantized box, done in order to drive or relax a song via anticipatory elements in the groove or minute tempo shifts), versus an actual inability to internalize/maintain a given tempo during a song.

One of these is highly desirable, and the other is a failure of musicianship.

 

[ThePez]

if it’s not fun...

 

[Gaolee]

I am pretty sensitive to tempo variations and wondering if I'm being too obsessive about it. I'm working with a drummer who is a little green and, with his consent, I am trying to coach him in filling in some of the cracks with things he needs to work on. Tempo is a big issue; he's gotten much better at it but will still manage to speed up or drag in certain areas; usually these are sections where his playing will go from simple to busy or vice versa, so I'm trying to make him aware of that tendency, so he can work on it.

He has an app on his phone that will show him his tempo as he's playing, and when he watches it, he manages to stay within what, to me, is a tolerable level of variance. But when he starts going beyond that level, I have to stop him and remind him to pay attention. I might alert him to that when he starts to approach a certain bpm or so above or below where we started, but I'm usually feeling it before then.

I'm not saying what that level is yet, because I don't know if I'm out of bounds for what most people would say is tolerable, and I want your unvarnished views.

Also, if you all agree with me, it could be helpful for me to be able to show him that I'm not being too picky. And if you don't agree, then perhaps I am being too picky, and that would be useful too.

Editing to add, since I'm sure it will come up: He has practiced with a metronome for years and he's gotten very good at keeping in time with a click; this is a problem that he has in playing freestyle without assistance of that sort, so I don't think using a metronome or click at this stage is going to fix this.

As a mediocre drummer at best myself, I can tell you that there is a big difference between playing with people and playing with a click or metronome. There are band chops that take time in an ensemble to develop. I have been playing with a guy who is a stickler for timing and tempo. I love the feedback and comments. It has made me a far better drummer.

The answer is that your sense of timing and highly tuned ear is great.

 

[MegaSwing]

I tell my drummers that if they hear me start playing fewer and fewer notes, they should take that as a signal to throttle back. If tempo discrepancies make the pocket smaller or more elusive, the damage is done.

 

[lbbc]

Tempo fluctuations happen. The best thing is to address it and rehearse certain passages...but not harp on it. I have seldom played with a drummer who didn't fluctuate in a "live" setting. Maybe that's why my current band is a trio with no drummer

 

[OptimalOptimus]

A lot of rock music of the past was full of error that we don't see anymore ...
Tempo changes everywhere
Tuning is a mess
But old rocker don't like modern music that is tempo corrected and pitch perfect ... it lacks personnality...

Sooooooooo

So accept that rock music is far from being perfect. Or play with a clic track

 

[Bullitt5135]

My band is having some issues starting songs at the correct tempo. Inevitably, any song that starts with a solo guitar part starts out too slow -- the guitarist likes to ease into things. Then the drummer and I are left trying to adjust on the fly. It's annoying. These are standard classic rock songs that have been around for decades...it shouldn't be that difficult.

Last night, I suggested using a metronome app – not to play along with it as a click track, but to have a reference during rehearsal for starting songs at a consistent tempo. Over time, my hope is that people will pay more attention to tempo and internalize it better. To me, it's as important as playing the right notes. The drummer seemed indifferent to the idea, and the guitarist put up the "if you listen to the originals, the tempos are all over the place" argument.

I heard a good tip a long time ago: To set your internal tempo clock before launching into a song, "listen" to the chorus in your head. It works for me.

 

[muggsy]

Well I feel like a dummy as THIS was the video I meant to post. My apologies to those that spent time watching the other one on my suggestion. It was still a good vid in my opinion, but this was the one I meant to post and unfortunately editing is locked for my original post. I humbly present this corrected link:

Thanks for that. I started watching the first one and immediately thought, that doesn't sound like Rick Beato. Watched about half of it. I love Rick's videos, and the one you meant to post is right on point. The human quality of great drummers is most noticeable when you take it away.

 

[fretno]

in practice yes , write the tempo down once y'all decide on the desired feel and check it with a metronome before starting it off . Live throw it all out the window and have fun , especially if playing rock , no one will care or notice .