Tempo fluctuations: How much is tolerable?

[Gaolee]

On the topic of tempo/drummers/metronomes, here is something I really like from @dreamadream99:

The only metronome I ever played to was a conductor, but I maintain that tempo, timing, and rhythmic accuracy is an ensemble skill, and everything I ever learned about them was from tapping my foot with a hundred other people. Timing is more about listening than insisting or exerting your will. Timing is a contract you enter into mutually with all the members of your ensemble; it lives and breathes, and micro-adjusts in such small increments it isn’t even perceptible.​

And when it’s done right, it is never about leading—it’s about following.​

(added emphasis mine)

In my opinion, practicing with a metronome is great, but a metronome is infallible, and so when you start to drag or push the beat it doesn't respond ... and you correct yourself. The hard part about playing in time with a human drummer is that you can push or pull the tempo and they will respond. So, if you're speeding up or slowing down, you affect others. That's "exerting your will". So even when I think the drummer is wrong (ie, he's speeding up, or slowing down) I'm working to not push or pull on their beat, but to follow it.

Bass keeps the groove, drums keep the time. I have noticed that there's more room to play with the beat playing bass than playing drums. It's there for both at times, but when the question is whether to lock to a tempo as a drummer or not, it's usually best to lock as best you can. I find myself getting a little distracted as a drummer trying to adjust to pushes and drags by other players sometimes. It's great if the drummer can do those things as well, and I play bass with drummers who can. I'm not that drummer yet.

 

[LBS-bass]

somehow i knew that you were referencing a particular drummer (you've mentioned working with this drummer in recent threads!), and i'm not so sure i could do what you're doing as well (as conscientiously). kudos to you both!

i'm wondering if you might be "too picky" in some regard while at the same time he might not be able to focus the same way he might with an actual 'objective' teacher. (?) i see both responses as natural/normal given the relationship, but maybe helpful to reflect upon. i'm hoping that you both are having some fun with this, too.



(also, if you mentioned it in the thread, i didn't pick up on the genre (and specific tune/s) the two of you are working on together. care to mention, or remind me/us?)

Ha ha, yes, I have mentioned this unique part of my life journey before. We have many years of history where it was better that I not work with him because our level of experience and preferred genres were very mismatched, and that was fine. But over time he's come to recognize that he can benefit from sitting down with someone who can hear some of his inconsistencies and advise him on some bad habits. Lucky for him; he lives with such a person.

I'm not a drummer, of course, but I can tell when, for example, a drummer is stiff and not relaxed. Probably the best advice he ever got from me was to stop taking it so seriously and to relax into the tempo with his whole body. I gave him that advice more than a year ago and it has made an enormous difference in his playing; he is much more fluid.

After that he got the idea that I might have more to share, and became open to being coached, so this actually is working pretty well for us at the moment.

I try not to browbeat him, and I remind him when I have to stop him that I'm not picking on him, just trying to help him be the player he wants to be. It isn't always the most fun thing he does in his day and when I can see he's starting to feel weary we will stop. But so far he keeps coming back for more. When we have shows coming up we go through the material several times and these are helpful sessions.

The other thing here is that he started off learning jazz drumming, which is a very different beast from what I typically do. I learned from him that pure jazz drumming and rock tend to not mix, unless you've got a very creative drummer who will instictively incorporate a steady backbeat in there amongst all the comping. Mitch Mitchell, Ginger Baker, those guys had all the jazz chops but they also knew how to drive the basic beat hard with snare and kick when needed. The drum lessons my husband took online really didn't address that at all.

So the back story on this is that he's now playing a lot of rock. I brought him through the blues, which he has a real aptitude for, by getting him an opportunity to sit in with a blues band I play with. That set the stage for what he's doing now. He's never studied rock drumming, so I've had to work with him a bit to help him understand the critical nature of backbeat in rock and so forth, and learning the blues was a great way for him to do that while still using a lot of his swing chops. I've also had to work with him to help him learn to play with more authority,

He's also filling a chair that was occupied by a world-class drummer with a lot of impressive credentials, which is a little intimidating. He'll never be that guy, but that's who everyone was used to playing with, so they all have pretty high expectations. They're also super nice people who are willing to help him come along and recognize the hard work he's putting in and how far he's come.

I have to say, he's doing a superb job and, on the whole, getting it pretty close.

 

[bbh]

I consider a drummer who can’t keep time as a big bother. I can only stand playing with a problem like that once or twice then one of us walks. I’m not there to help with a basic issue like that.

 

[burgerdj]

It’s one thing to play a song too fast, or to play a song too slowly. It’s something else entirely to fluctuate between the two. I go out of my way to try to lock in with whatever drummer I am playing with - simplifying my parts, emphasizing the one etc. -, but some drummers are lost in their own worlds and do not attempt to reciprocate. Drives me nuts, if I’m honest.

 

[OptimalOptimus]

Can you play prog or classical musique ? Those style of music do have a lot of changes in BPM or time signature

 

[Carl Hillman]

...just about everyone has a good sense of time.

Jeff Berlin influenced my playing a lot early in my development, and I doubt I'll ever be as technically proficient as he is on the bass.

But, through my many years of experience, playing with tons of musicians, watching countless people dance, and listening to audience members clapping along with the band, that statement is flat wrong.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Fluctuating tempo is bad. Even people who know nothing about music will get physically nauseous listening to a rhythm section that can't keep the tempo. And there is nothing sadder than when a song starts at a bop and ends as a dirge. Playing songs at different tempos from time to time can be fun, and may even be an expression of an artistic perspective. Doing a tight, intentional, and unexpected time change in the middle of an arrangement can blow minds and display the virtuosity of your psychically-linked rhythm section. But just wavering around in time is a problem, and needs to get tightened up. Traditionally, you fix that with a metronome that has a blinking light on it.

 

[LBS-bass]

I feel like I should mention here that this isn't the typical "trying to be patient with shoes in a dryer" situation. We're talking about fine-tuning someone's chops who isn't playing poorly on the whole. So while I appreciate all the comments, I really am trying to narrowly focus on whether or not I'm demanding more from him than an actual drum teacher would demand, in this very narrow area of tempo fluctuations. I'd like to hear numbers. What is acceptable to you? 2 bpm? 8 bpm? Something in between?

His fills are fine. They land where they are supposed to. Etc. etc. He loses focus here and there. It tends to become noticeable where, for example, he'll go from a simple back beat to something more busy with the hats. At that place he might start speeding up by as much as +4 bpm, because he isn't as focused on staying in time as he should be.

So this is a pretty specific issue, which is why I asked a pretty specific question.

 

[sears]

I think a lot of pretty decent musicians rush sometimes and you're probably doing what you can to stop it. It's contagious. You can pull back with your playing and afterwards say, did you hear me trying to drag you back?

 

[SemiDriven]

I feel like I should mention here that this isn't the typical "trying to be patient with shoes in a dryer" situation. We're talking about fine-tuning someone's chops who isn't playing poorly on the whole. So while I appreciate all the comments, I really am trying to narrowly focus on whether or not I'm demanding more from him than an actual drum teacher would demand, in this very narrow area of tempo fluctuations. I'd like to hear numbers. What is acceptable to you? 2 bpm? 8 bpm? Something in between?

His fills are fine. They land where they are supposed to. Etc. etc. He loses focus here and there. It tends to become noticeable where, for example, he'll go from a simple back beat to something more busy with the hats. At that place he might start speeding up by as much as +4 bpm, because he isn't as focused on staying in time as he should be.

So this is a pretty specific issue, which is why I asked a pretty specific question.

Anything that varies below 7-BPM is a step in the right direction.

And...since you're married to the drummer, as long as he remains open to your best intentions for him as a drummer (and he appreciates that!), that's the main thing!

 

[BarfanyShart]

One thing to keep in mind is that the drummer and bass player should try to practice with a metronome together. I have found that when I got into a habit of trying to "push" the drummer to keep the tempo up, I was actually teaching myself to rush and subtly making everything slightly more chaotic than it needed to be.

 

[LBS-bass]

And...since you're married to the drummer, as long as he remains open to your best intentions for him as a drummer (and he appreciates that!), that's the main thing!

I wouldn't be doing this for him if he didn't want me to. He really wants to move to the next level and as long as we both think I can help him, there's no harm. We don't fight over it. I didn't advise him for years because I knew at that time he wouldn't be receptive. But now he is.

 

[darwin-bass]

Reading some of the comments in this (and other similar) thread and looking back over the years I have probably been fortunate to have always worked with reliable drummers. At the same time, I've auditioned plenty that are as you describe, and it drives me nuts.

Right now, I don't have a drummer in my current band, and to be honest I've no intention of having one. I produce backing tracks for the 95% of songs that need drums and percussion and additional sequenced stuff like strings and orchestral arrangements, extra synth layers, special effects etc.

Just before lockdown we decided to 'test the water' and audition a drummer. Local guy with a Roland electronic kit. Said he knew many of the songs we play. I thought this would be great as we would be able to play through stuff straight away and at reasonable volume. Not a chance! Rather than play through the PA he insisted on using a Roland PM-200 facing the room from in front of the kick pad. We decided to start with a track running then fade it out as he caught the tempo, feel and dynamics. He lasted about 4 bars before drifting off and losing the feel. Sometimes early, sometimes late, rarely in the middle. Not only that, he played so loud that he buried everything else.

Needless to say I am still making tracks! I think I've become quite adept at getting a good human feel into these tracks but it does take time...



Interesting. Some of the songs we play were obviously recorded originally to strict clicks in the studio, so it is easy to create tracks that fit those. Some of the songs pre-date widespread use of those studio techniques and they just don't work with tight quanitisation. And some of them go way beyond ±2 BPM.

For example, Talk of the Town, by The Pretenders varies anywhere between 132 and 135.8. It doesn't sound like much but without the ebb and flow the song feels rushed.
View attachment 4445344

Erma Franklin's 'Piece of My Heart' goes from 77 to 84 and back again a couple of times. The changes are more integral to the song than the Pretenders song, and it fails miserably when done at constant tempo, IMHO.
View attachment 4445356

Supertramp's Logical Song starts at a leisurely 112 and hits a (temporary) high of 125 before closing at 122:
View attachment 4445368

Mick Fleetwood is one of the hardest to emulate, but he is very deliberate and I'm really starting to get a feel for what he is all about. We now have 4 Fleetwood Mac songs in the set list - 3 of which have backing tracks - and they all disintegrate if you attempt to quantise them. To the casual listener, 'Dreams' sounds almost metronomic, but in truth it flows between 117 and 121. Here's just one section:
View attachment 4445370

Patti Smith's 'Because the Night' just keeps pushing forwards - starts at 110 and ends at 128!
View attachment 4445372

I guess what I'm trying to say is that ±2 is more than enough to affect the feel of something and therefore, at face value, you are not being intolerant. But it also seems to me that ±2 (or more) is the sort of fluctuation that can actually contribute positive things provided it is deliberate and 'musical', which in turn makes it predictable. If the fluctuations are random, rapid and unrelated to the needs of the music then I fully understand your frustration and I too would probably feel the need to complain.

YMMV

Yes, varying tempos is fairly common in recorded music from days gone by. But are the songs better because of the tempo changes? I'm going to say they are not. The changes were small and the bands stayed together so the tempo changes did no harm.

Today I listen to music that is done to a click track. Very consistent tempos. And they sound great.

I admit that solo piano, esp. classical, uses tempo changes as part of the emotional dynamics of a piece. Yes louder sometimes does mean faster . But when you try to do that with a band, you have the problem of the band not staying tight.

Now to LBS-bass's root question - The best scenario is that the drummer becomes aware of their own tempo variations and takes it upon themselves to improve. Play with a click. Work on consistency. With some time and attention to detail, they may become better than the rest of the band which is probably good enough. At the very least, they'll become better than they were.

 

[SteveCS]

At that place he might start speeding up, because he isn't as focused on staying in time as he should be.

So this is a pretty specific issue, which is why I asked a pretty specific question.

Through the examples given by me and others it is obviously a question of context. The tempo drift in Route 66 sounds more like a deliberate and legitimate feature than a flaw, rather like Piece of my Heart. It sounds like it is more a case of absorbing the nuances of genre through sustained exposure and practice than any one fundamental technical problem that needs a specific fix.

 

[packhowitzer]

Thanks for that. I started watching the first one and immediately thought, that doesn't sound like Rick Beato. Watched about half of it. I love Rick's videos, and the one you meant to post is right on point. The human quality of great drummers is most noticeable when you take it away.

Great response, and I'm sorry again for the mix-up. Thanks for sticking with me until I could share the intended link!

 

[LBS-bass]

This is the root of the infamous Jeff Berlin controversy: playing along with a constant reference (metronome, click, recordings) doesn't mean you have good time, you are just used to playing to a reference.

Yep. I get where that controversy is. Playing with a click isn't going to fix the problem unless this is a problem that can't be fixed, and in that case he's going to need IEMs and a click track for the rest of his life. Which isn't the end of the world.

I think we would both prefer to fix the problem, though. Here's a thing - up until recently, I think his understanding of what is an acceptable fluctuation variance was a lot different from mine. So I'm trying to help him get to where he knows what's going to be expected of him in a higher-level situation. Ultimately, if he can't fix that, this means using tools. I don't care if he uses tools. Plenty of people do. But I think we need to work out whether or not those tools are really needed or if he can fix this without them.

 

[LBS-bass]

a question of context

The context here is that we are not talking about rubato passages, but places where you would expect a consistent tempo.

 

[darwin-bass]

A couple of Tempo Tales.

1. I played in a 8-piece band a number of years ago that had some timing issues. Some in the band just struggled with triplets and anything off-beat. If it was 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16 note they were fine, but add a dot and we're in trouble. As a simple test I had them all clap a 1/4 note beat to a metronome. They all were fine. Then I had them clap on the off-beat. Fully half of the group could not do it. And it was the same subset who struggled with off-beat playing. All of the members of this group were mature people with years of musical training. Yet, the fundament ability to sense the off-beat was not part of their abilities.

2. In church we have several drummers. Our most experienced player has been playing since the mid 1970's. He is known for speeding up everything. He'll click a temp at 100 bpm then begin playing at 108 and then speed up to 112. During the bridge when the drums are out, the leader will bring the tempo back down to maybe 105. Drummer comes in and we're up to 115. He knows about his tendency to speed up but apparently either can't fix it or doesn't think it is an issue and hasn't tried to fix it. Nice guy, but not the nicest to play with.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Yep. I get where that controversy is. Playing with a click isn't going to fix the problem unless this is a problem that can't be fixed, and in that case he's going to need IEMs and a click track for the rest of his life. Which isn't the end of the world.

I think we would both prefer to fix the problem, though. Here's a thing - up until recently, I think his understanding of what is an acceptable fluctuation variance was a lot different from mine. So I'm trying to help him get to where he knows what's going to be expected of him in a higher-level situation. Ultimately, if he can't fix that, this means using tools. I don't care if he uses tools. Plenty of people do. But I think we need to work out whether or not those tools are really needed or if he can fix this without them.

I think playing with a reference is essentially practice that, over time, will fix the problem. You don't have to only play to a click with IEM's all the time, you can do it intermittently at rehearsals, and decide as a band if you all want to try it on stage. Maybe record a set where some of the songs are played with a click, and see how much of a difference it makes. Very few people have a perfect sense of tempo, so you may all find it at least somewhat helpful to do occasionally.

I personally feel that a visual reference, like a blinking light or an old pendulum metronome, is even better than a click at teaching somebody tempo. I don't know why that might be the case, but I personally feel like a click in my ear is a crutch for tempo that distracts from my ability to listen to other musical things that are going on in the group, whereas the blinking light tickles a different part of my brain and keeps my ears open.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think playing with a reference is essentially practice that, over time, will fix the problem

Well, he's been doing it for at least ten years, and he's gotten quite good at staying with the reference, and we're in our sixties so I'm not sure how much longer we beat our heads against that particular wall