Tempo fluctuations: How much is tolerable?

[jonathanhughes]

None. Unless we're intentionally speeding up or slowing down.

And time fluctuations aren't the same as feel (which is the focus of the John Bonham video above). You can still have perfect timing but have a feel that's slightly behind the beat. It's enjoyable to play with a drummer who has great timing but a different feel than other drummers. It's completely unenjoyable (and often exhausting) trying to play with a drummer with bad timing. I can deal with (not happily!) fluctuations in the snare, but if the kick is all loose goose, then NO THANKS.

 

[Bass4Brkfast]

IMHO, the answer varies by individual. I prefer for the tempo and feel to be very steady and consistent. If the drummer drifts too much, then I prefer that he/she uses a click to lock in the time. However, my observation is some drummers can play well with a click and some cannot.

Just because a drummer plays with a click does not necessarily mean time and the feel will be stable. Years ago I worked with a drummer who could play with a click all day, but the internal symmetry of his measures varied continuously. If you listened to him practicing with a metronome, you could hear him speeding up and slowing down, but his tempo always stayed with the click. Nice guy but I hated playing with him.

Many of my peers expressed the idea that playing with a click is distasteful and makes the music sterile. They say music should breath. Personally this feels like an excuse for bad time to me, but it's probably best to view it as a different philosophy.

Another thing to consider is the shape and consistency of the pocket has a lot do with how we perceive tempo. By pocket I mean the rhythmic tension between where each player is perceiving/placing the beat. In order for the tempo to really lock in, the drummer and bassist have to agree on the size of the pocket. If one person feels the pocket is too big or too small, then they will tend to react by slowing down or speeding up. This can create ironic results. For example if the bassist feels that time is rushing, he/she will naturally try to pull back. This may create a perception for the drummer that time is dragging, causing the drummer to push ahead. Usually this is a loosing battle for the bass player.

When musicians come together for the first time, it can take awhile to get comfortable with one another and lock in. This can also be a factor when musicians learn a new material with a feel they have not previously played together.

For a song to breath, I prefer the size and shape of the pocket to have consistency within sections of a song, but different sections may have a slight change in feel. For example, time may push forward during the chorus and then pull back during the verse.

Distance between the musicians and their instruments can have an impact on how the feel is perceived. Time travels at about 1' per millisecond (actually 1.12533' per mS). The threshold for audible perception of time delay is somewhere between 10 and 15mS, and the subconscious threshold may be even faster. So when combined propagation delay is >10mS, there is probably some impact on how we perceive the pocket.

Also in my experience how your amp is aimed and adjusted has an impact on feel. If the drummer can hear more highs coming from your amp, it tends to push their perception of where you are placing the beat forward in time. This is not always the case as some drummers prefer to focus on how your notes bloom; rather than where you are placing the attack.

What he said.
Also, to reinforce the point, music can breathe when playing along with a click too. Good drummers should be able to deliberately rush or lag for effect, to manipulate the track's energy.
If the drummer is hard to lock in with, chances are the audience can tell.

 

[TheDirtyLowDown]

This is a topic that our band keeps returning to with our drummer. He will speed up when he tries a fill that is beyond what he can comfortably do -- his rushing to get everything in raises the tempo. He also verbally counts things in at a different tempo than what he plays. We've talked about this, and other rhythmic hiccups over the years and here are some things that have helped us:

• We're working towards playing fewer notes/beats but making them count for more. It's an eternal quest. The important part is that we're trying together and encouraging each other.
• We're listening more closely together and can give each other a glance now when the tempo starts to drift, and that mutual awareness is a big help.
• We've asked him to count tunes off hitting the drumsticks together -- that helps keep the counted tempo and his played tempo closer together
• The first step for all of this was to notice/feel the problem, consistently. Recordings help a lot. He also tried some of the various tempo-detection phone apps also (he played a whole gig with one mounted to his kit). But the recordings helped the most, and they also helped other members of the band feel when they're pushing/dragging the tempo.

Last but not least -- Pat Metheny has said repeatedly that the drummer is the most important band member on stage. Helping our drummer and our band really understand this has helped us all improve.

 

[fhm555]

IME there’s three basic types of drummers.
Top of the list are the natural metronomes, those who are on time all the time.
Next are those who may start faster or slower than we rehearsed, but they hold steady to whatever tempo they started.
Last are the slinky drummers, which is where I’d put your guy and I’ve seen many variations of that basic trait. Starting right then speed up/slow down at random or in/out of fills, trouble coming in from a full stop, etc. I’ve seen it mostly in drummers who tend toward busy drumming more than is called for. They worry too much about getting all their strokes in and are willing to jump time to make that happen. If they have the occasional lapse but are otherwise steady, it is what it is, but someone who can’t keep time without wandering will cause the whole thing to sound like amateur hour as everyone else is trying to adjust to a moving target of a tempo.
Your guy sounds like he may benefit from an IEM that would allow him to get a click track without the rest of the band getting it.

 

[Wasnex]

If he plays with a click it should only beat once a measure or it will be keeping time for him.

I have played with a few drummers who insisted on using one click per bar. All of them had an inconsistent feel; one bar would be behind the click and the next ahead. Their tempo stayed with the click on average, but time in each measure varied; sometimes in a rather unmusical way. If they got too far off they would wind up rushing or dragging to get back on the beat...essentially adding or loosing an entire measure.

IMHO, most people will play better if they hear the click more frequently. The drummers I am referring to refused to believe this. We convinced one of them to try with the metronome on quarter notes and everyone in the group but the drummer agreed it felt way better. Unfortunately he still insisted on using one beat per bar .

Per Adam Neely/Paul Fraise, the slowest tempo humans can maintain is around 33bpm.


As an example, I Googled the original tempo for Mustang Sally and it is 110bpm. The song is in 4/4 so if you want to play with one beat per measure, the click must be set to (110/4=27.5bpm). The first problem is this is below the 33bpm threshold where the beats are perceptually linked. IMHO Mustang Sally is actually a medium tempo song and the problem will be even worse with a slower song.

The second problem: AFAIK most metronomes cannot be set to half BPM increments. So if you insist on using one beat per measure you are going to introduce error into the tempo. I.E. if you set the metronome to either 27 or 28bpm the tempo will be off by 2bpm

If you want to try it, here is an online metronome.
33 BPM Metronome - Orchestra Central
Set it to 27 or 28bpm and then try to tap out quarter notes Most people will not be able to do this with making adjustments to stay in time with the click.

IMHO it's not enough to be able to stay with the beat. You also need to be able to maintain consistent rhythmic symmetry. In other words, the beats need to fall in exactly the same place in each measure.

 

[TinIndian]

Outside of the recent spate of "quantized" music nearly ever rock song ever played has had some drift in tempo. While we should all strive to keep the tempo steady and even, I really do not have issue with a little variance. Keeps the music human. Of course I dont mean crazy tempo swings.

 

[juancaminos]

Our current drummer quit last Saturday Night, after the gig. He said that he was tired of being picked on. He actually replaced the drummer who was there when I joined. The first drummer was let go due to inappropriate comments and jokes on the mic. I didn't think it was bad but the BL said that several bars did not want us back until he was gone. So current drummer started out ok but got worse with missing stops, speeding up during lead breaks and starting songs too slow. Oh and forgetting how some songs start.

I blame it on lack of personal practice.

 

[arbiterusa]

I am pretty sensitive to tempo variations and wondering if I'm being too obsessive about it.

No. I couldn’t play with a drummer like you describe.

 

[juancaminos]

I have played with a few drummers who insisted on using one click per bar. All of them had an inconsistent feel; one bar would be behind the click and the next ahead. Their tempo stayed with the click on average, but time in each measure varied; sometimes in a rather unmusical way. If they got too far off they would wind up rushing or dragging to get back on the beat...essentially adding or loosing an entire measure.

IMHO, most people will play better if they hear the click more frequently. The drummers I am referring to refused to believe this. We convinced one of them to try with the metronome on quarter notes and everyone in the group but the drummer agreed it felt way better. Unfortunately he still insisted on using one beat per bar .

Per Adam Neely/Paul Fraise, the slowest tempo humans can maintain is around 33bpm.


As an example, I Googled the original tempo for Mustang Sally and it is 110bpm. The song is in 4/4 so if you want to play with one beat per measure, the click must be set to (110/4=27.5bpm). The first problem is this is below the 33bpm threshold where the beats are perceptually linked. IMHO Mustang Sally is actually a medium tempo song and the problem will be even worse with a slower song.

The second problem: AFAIK most metronomes cannot be set to half BPM increments. So if you insist on using one beat per measure you are going to introduce error into the tempo. I.E. if you set the metronome to either 27 or 28bpm the tempo will be off by 2bpm

If you want to try it, here is an online metronome.
33 BPM Metronome - Orchestra Central
Set it to 27 or 28bpm and then try to tap out quarter notes Most people will not be able to do this with making adjustments to stay in time with the click.

IMHO it's not enough to be able to stay with the beat. You also need to be able to maintain consistent rhythmic symmetry. In other words, the beats need to fall in exactly the same place in each measure.

To me it's not a contest or "work of art". It's more like: at what point does the groove go away. When is the soul of the song gone. When is a song no longer a song due to the tempo. This can go both ways. Hwo fast can you play a song? To the point where it is no longer enjoyable. Why is it no longer enjoyable...tempo speaking?

 

[LowG]

Ha! 2 pages only one person answered the question! I love the internet

 

[JimmyM]

I don’t care for music played to a click as it should have room to breathe, but there’s a big difference between that and noticeable rushing or slowing. Unless Carl Palmer is playing the drums, and then I dig his rushing

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I think I have read here and elsewhere where Jeff Berlin has mentioned that you shouldn't have to work on groove and playing with a metronome (with respect to bass) and that just about everyone has a good sense of time. If you have timing issues, it's because you are struggling with your playing (the notes). It makes sense.

So, if your drummer is speeding up after a fill for example, I would suggest that is because he is struggling with the fills. If he is struggling with the tempo overall, maybe he's having trouble with the whole drum part. Or in the case of drums, maybe he's out of shape. Drums is actually physically demanding, so that could be part of it too. But the overall point is, he has to practice more in general to be more comfortable on his instrument and that should go a long way in being more consistent.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I don’t care for music played to a click as it should have room to breathe, but there’s a big difference between that and noticeable rushing or slowing. Unless Carl Palmer is playing the drums, and then I dig his rushing

Or Stewart Copland!

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

Ha! 2 pages only one person answered the question! I love the internet

Who won?

 

[JimmyM]

Also, I played in a band who did a song I co-wrote years ago, and we did a live studio demo where it picked up tempo during the bridge and stayed there for the rest of the song. When we cut it for real, the drummer insisted on a click against everyone else’s wishes. Song ruined. Nobody liked it except him. No sane person would have picked it over the demo unless they were click fanatics.

So I guess my advice is aim for feel, and not perfection.

 

[JimmyM]

Or Stewart Copland!

I love Stewart‘a rushing with most of his projects, but I saw him play with the reunited Doors on a talk show when they got the dude from The Cult to sing. They did Light My Fire, and Stewart’s rushing was unbearable. I wasn’t surprised they replaced him soon after.

 

[Wasnex]

To me it's not a contest or "work of art". It's more like: at what point does the groove go away.

Part of the problem is the answer is subjective. Many drummers seem to want to play songs way faster than the original. Regardless of whether it's intentional, they tend to push the tempo forward. At some point the song may become unsingable or unplayable on some instruments before the drummer gets to the tempo he/she prefers.

It's fairly common to play songs faster live than the original recording, but there are limits to how fast you can go; especially when you are playing dance music.

 

[Wasnex]

I think I have read here and elsewhere where Jeff Berlin has mentioned that you shouldn't have to work on groove and playing with a metronome (with respect to bass) and that just about everyone has a good sense of time. If you have timing issues, it's because you are struggling with your playing (the notes). It makes sense.

So, if your drummer is speeding up after a fill for example, I would suggest that is because he is struggling with the fills. If he is struggling with the tempo overall, maybe he's having trouble with the whole drum part. Or in the case of drums, maybe he's out of shape. Drums is actually physically demanding, so that could be part of it too. But the overall point is, he has to practice more in general to be more comfortable on his instrument and that should go a long way in being more consistent.

No doubt Mr Berlin is a great player, but surely you know that some of us do not agree with all of his ideas .

I do agree that tempo variation can be the result of not knowing the part or not maintaining skills/conditioning. But IMHO, people also tend to have different ideas of what the ideal tempo for a song is and how big the pocket is. IMHO, these disagreements between group member are also reasons why undesired tempo variations occur.

 

[CryingBass]

If it ain’t timing problems than it’s dynamics ( usually a complete lack of ).
Drum Fart Funnies!

 

[GreyBeard]

click track