Tempo fluctuations: How much is tolerable?

[b/o 402]

Reading some of the comments in this (and other similar) thread and looking back over the years I have probably been fortunate to have always worked with reliable drummers. At the same time, I've auditioned plenty that are as you describe, and it drives me nuts.

Right now, I don't have a drummer in my current band, and to be honest I've no intention of having one. I produce backing tracks for the 95% of songs that need drums and percussion and additional sequenced stuff like strings and orchestral arrangements, extra synth layers, special effects etc.

Just before lockdown we decided to 'test the water' and audition a drummer. Local guy with a Roland electronic kit. Said he knew many of the songs we play. I thought this would be great as we would be able to play through stuff straight away and at reasonable volume. Not a chance! Rather than play through the PA he insisted on using a Roland PM-200 facing the room from in front of the kick pad. We decided to start with a track running then fade it out as he caught the tempo, feel and dynamics. He lasted about 4 bars before drifting off and losing the feel. Sometimes early, sometimes late, rarely in the middle. Not only that, he played so loud that he buried everything else.

Needless to say I am still making tracks! I think I've become quite adept at getting a good human feel into these tracks but it does take time...



Interesting. Some of the songs we play were obviously recorded originally to strict clicks in the studio, so it is easy to create tracks that fit those. Some of the songs pre-date widespread use of those studio techniques and they just don't work with tight quanitisation. And some of them go way beyond ±2 BPM.

For example, Talk of the Town, by The Pretenders varies anywhere between 132 and 135.8. It doesn't sound like much but without the ebb and flow the song feels rushed.
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Erma Franklin's 'Piece of My Heart' goes from 77 to 84 and back again a couple of times. The changes are more integral to the song than the Pretenders song, and it fails miserably when done at constant tempo, IMHO.
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Supertramp's Logical Song starts at a leisurely 112 and hits a (temporary) high of 125 before closing at 122:
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Mick Fleetwood is one of the hardest to emulate, but he is very deliberate and I'm really starting to get a feel for what he is all about. We now have 4 Fleetwood Mac songs in the set list - 3 of which have backing tracks - and they all disintegrate if you attempt to quantise them. To the casual listener, 'Dreams' sounds almost metronomic, but in truth it flows between 117 and 121. Here's just one section:
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Patti Smith's 'Because the Night' just keeps pushing forwards - starts at 110 and ends at 128!
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I guess what I'm trying to say is that ±2 is more than enough to affect the feel of something and therefore, at face value, you are not being intolerant. But it also seems to me that ±2 (or more) is the sort of fluctuation that can actually contribute positive things provided it is deliberate and 'musical', which in turn makes it predictable. If the fluctuations are random, rapid and unrelated to the needs of the music then I fully understand your frustration and I too would probably feel the need to complain.

YMMV

Excellent work!
Just for fun, I’ve been using a metronome app to tap along and find tempos while listening to the classic rock station.
I’ve realized something I didn’t know until I did this experiment: ALL our favorite classics have tempo variations.

 

[TheDirtyLowDown]

On the topic of tempo/drummers/metronomes, here is something I really like from @dreamadream99:

The only metronome I ever played to was a conductor, but I maintain that tempo, timing, and rhythmic accuracy is an ensemble skill, and everything I ever learned about them was from tapping my foot with a hundred other people. Timing is more about listening than insisting or exerting your will. Timing is a contract you enter into mutually with all the members of your ensemble; it lives and breathes, and micro-adjusts in such small increments it isn’t even perceptible.​

And when it’s done right, it is never about leading—it’s about following.​

(added emphasis mine)

In my opinion, practicing with a metronome is great, but a metronome is infallible, and so when you start to drag or push the beat it doesn't respond ... and you correct yourself. The hard part about playing in time with a human drummer is that you can push or pull the tempo and they will respond. So, if you're speeding up or slowing down, you affect others. That's "exerting your will". So even when I think the drummer is wrong (ie, he's speeding up, or slowing down) I'm working to not push or pull on their beat, but to follow it.

 

[zubrycky]

Honestly, I don't care.

I've played with so many drummers over the years that now I can't think about that anymore. I just adjust myself to each one. It's not a process that I can describe with words. It's a subconscious thing that is a second nature to me now.

 

[Dbassmon]

Time feel is everything to rhythm section player and music has a natural ebb and flow, at least when played by humans. The issue for many is the lack of any development of an internal clock. If tempo jumps significantly during a section change, it's obvious that the player (name your instrument) does not have an internal metronome or body clock that is being heard.

Some believe that is a natural talent, others it's something that can be worked on and developed. I believe you most can develop and improve their sense of time and develop an internal metronome. For some its easy, for others, it's work.

To compound the lack of a disciplined approach to time feel is Adrenaline. Adrenaline released during a live performance is a mind and time-altering substance. It tends to make time slow down and players compensate by rushing. You must first recognize this, then learn to control it.

This is a deep subject and I don't want to get too far into the weeds here. Suffices to say that music should have time variation that enhances the communication of an aesthetic. You must have command of time feel to make those decisions consciously, otherwise, it's just a bad sense of time.

 

[JazznFunk]

Everyone in the band is responsible for being able to keep and reference good time, but if a band has a drummer with these problems, it is going to really make things hard in a hurry because even if everyone else is consistent and the drummer is noticeably behind or ahead, it makes the entire band sound bad - and not tight - in a hurry.... and if you as the bassist try to chase that to 'lock in', it sounds disjointed and unprofessional in a hurry. In those instances, I generally have to simplify my playing a lot and listen to figure out their quirks, and visually communicate about the rush/drag points.... it makea a gig a lot more work than it might have to be. I've had the privilege to play with a lot of drummers with great time/tempo, but with varying degrees of 'give' in the pocket and where they sit in/on/around the beat - that's simply the human element that we simply have to adjust to as musicians.

I'll never forget one of my jazz ensembles in school, where we had to play over changes solo with no chordal or percussion accompaniment to a counted off tempo.... I was pretty green and didn't have my walking lines or soloing anywhere close to where they needed to be yet. The instructor said after a couple of choruses - 'Now here's the thing.... you missed some chord/scale tones here and there on occasion, but you have great natural time, so what you DID do didn't stick out so bad - that will get you hired more than someone with 100% great note choices but wavering time.'

My main project for the last 7+ years has been a drummerless jazz trio with double bass (me), sax, and electric guitar. I also spent the majority of my musical life playing in duos with no drummer or percussion/time reference. In all of those situations, it is incumbent on me to be the one to provide the time and tempo and keep it as solid as possible, so I have spent a lot of time over the years with drum machines and metronomes to check myself. One of my bandmates in the trio has a tendency to drag tempos, and myself and the guitarist (who is also a part-time bass player and a stickler for time/tempo consistency) make it a point in practice to go right to a metronome or drum machine at the tempo in question to re-establish where it needs to be.... and it generally only takes one partial run-through to fix it. When we DO play with a drummer as an expanded quartet, it makes things glide along like a well-tuned sports car. Everyone has to be ego-less when it comes to time/tempo to serve the music properly, and if a musician isn't willing to address and accept when they are at fault for those issues - and work to fix them on an individual and group basis - then it's probably never going to be smooth.

 

[electracoyote]

I don’t think there is a one size fits all standard for this issue, it’s more a band standard and seems to vary a lot. So your standard @LBS-bass is no more or less valid than anyone’s, and if the other musicians in this project largely share your sentiments, you are right to express concern and offer help.

It just so happens I strongly share your sentiments.

That being the case, it sounds like you are reaching the saturation point where you risk tipping over to hen pecking territory, and now you must weigh the cost-benefit of continued tutelage.

I’m of the opinion that rehabilitating a fellow musician is a hit and miss proposition, and mostly miss IME. And it can unexpectedly sour a relationship.

One trait your drummer seems to struggle with is significant tempo shifts (almost always speeding up) during runs, fills, transitionary segments, etc. This is a particularly frustrating habit since it can really wreck the tightness and literally throws everyone off tempo to fend for themselves and be disoriented for a beat or two. That’s like a mini train wreck that translates to all ears in the room.

What to do? Sounds like you’re doing it and I support that if you can secure his trust and respect along the way and avoid animosity.

 

[JCooper]

Ha!
IMO….Being married to the drummer complicates the situation considerably!

 

[JRA]

if you all agree with me, it could be helpful for me to be able to show him that I'm not being too picky. And if you don't agree, then perhaps I am being too picky, and that would be useful too.

somehow i knew that you were referencing a particular drummer (you've mentioned working with this drummer in recent threads!), and i'm not so sure i could do what you're doing as well (as conscientiously). kudos to you both!

i'm wondering if you might be "too picky" in some regard while at the same time he might not be able to focus the same way he might with an actual 'objective' teacher. (?) i see both responses as natural/normal given the relationship, but maybe helpful to reflect upon. i'm hoping that you both are having some fun with this, too.



(also, if you mentioned it in the thread, i didn't pick up on the genre (and specific tune/s) the two of you are working on together. care to mention, or remind me/us?)

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I am pretty sensitive to tempo variations and wondering if I'm being too obsessive about it. I'm working with a drummer who is a little green and, with his consent, I am trying to coach him in filling in some of the cracks with things he needs to work on. Tempo is a big issue; he's gotten much better at it but will still manage to speed up or drag in certain areas; usually these are sections where his playing will go from simple to busy or vice versa, so I'm trying to make him aware of that tendency, so he can work on it.

He has an app on his phone that will show him his tempo as he's playing, and when he watches it, he manages to stay within what, to me, is a tolerable level of variance. But when he starts going beyond that level, I have to stop him and remind him to pay attention. I might alert him to that when he starts to approach a certain bpm or so above or below where we started, but I'm usually feeling it before then.

I'm not saying what that level is yet, because I don't know if I'm out of bounds for what most people would say is tolerable, and I want your unvarnished views.

Also, if you all agree with me, it could be helpful for me to be able to show him that I'm not being too picky. And if you don't agree, then perhaps I am being too picky, and that would be useful too.

Editing to add, since I'm sure it will come up: He has practiced with a metronome for years and he's gotten very good at keeping in time with a click; this is a problem that he has in playing freestyle without assistance of that sort, so I don't think using a metronome or click at this stage is going to fix this.

Not a lot is tolerable, but depending on how much you enjoy (or detest) playing with this drummer, you might put up with more (or less) than you would with someone else. You might also work with him or her more intently or give up early.

There are a few manifestations of tempo issues; 1. Variation of slower and faster during a piece that should have straight time, 2. Unable to return to the original tempo in songs that have tempo changes, 3. Speeding up only from start to finish. 4. Slowing down only from start to finish.

I think #1 is what you are experiencing and that’s the one that probably bugs people most. It drives me crazy to play a song that has a tempo change & then returns to the original, and we end up playing three different tempos. Those aren’t all that common, so I only end up gritting my teeth a couple times a gig.

Faster / slower through a straight time song is probably due to pauses / rests and then re-start back on the same tempo. That’s a harder one to fix, because it means the person having the problem looses the tempo any time they aren’t playing, which means that person has no inherent / internal timing. Not good.

#3 & #4 is usually a lack of focus or others in the band pushing or pulling. It can also be a problem for any band that hasn’t played in a while & gets a big gig (#3) or a band that hasn’t had a weekend off in a while and is in the last set (#4).

You can’t be too picky about timing as long as you are discussing it as adults, both parties are genuinely looking for a solution, and progress is being made. It’s not so much fun if one person is continually picking on another. That can turn into exchanging complaints about each other, which can escalate into a very bad outcome.

 

[J-Mags]

There are two kinds of tempo variations: the kind that the rest of the world perceives as something wrong with the groove and the kind that they don't. My ex-wife played bass in a band with a fairly well-known drummer who I thought was great, and my ex insisted that said drummer kept weird time. I didn't hear it at all as a listener, but eventually the drummer filled in with my band. Sure enough, sometimes when she'd play a fill, you'd have to kind of guess when she'd hit the one. After a bit of time together, it became more intuitive, but it was never clockwork, and it sounded great. Audiences moving to the music don't lie.

Recently I played with a friend of one of my kids, a drummer who very young, but who is literally an award-winning jazz drummer with a full ride scholarship to an exclusive music program next year, etc. Once again, her tempo was labile, but she sounded fantastic.

Contrast this with your run-of-the-mill speeder-uppers, slower-downers, and time-out-for-the-fill-ers. To me, it's a specific kind of drummer who keeps perfect time, but if you can keep it within certain parameters, some variation is acceptable.

Also, improvement isn't necessarily remediation. Everyone keeps better time with experience if that's what they're trying to do. I wasn't born with the greatest time myself. For most of my time in music I've played guitar, which is more forgiving, and I eventually taught myself to be a competent enough rhythm guitar player that I get compliments from drummers (leads were seldom a problem, although I made a recording once where I was rushing the hook, and I still can't stand to listen to it). On bass, I lock in easily with a pick, but when I'm playing fingerstyle, I still have to focus constantly on the drummer and fight the urge to speed up.

 

[littlebun]

Ha!
IMO….Being married to the drummer complicates the situation considerably!

Drumming is one of the hardest chairs in the band. I appreciate the pressure put on them, and watch them constantly dealing with the feel and tempo opinions of different leaders. In my world the solid drummers are the ones who get the gigs, and the others simply don't work. I listen and play tightly with each drummers groove; this makes things go well.

 

[Freekmagnet]

@LBS-bass -

I don’t think you’re being picky. If anything, you are exhibiting an admirable amount of patience.

Part of being a professional drummer is being able to keep consistent time. It’s job part of the job. I’ve fired guys who couldn’t keep time. The drummer’s job is very difficult - that’s why really good drummers are basically a commodity and play in 50 bands.

It sounds like your drummer is willing to work with you and has shown improvement. I’d take that as a positive sign. Additionally, there’s no shame in playing to a click while performing live. There’s plenty of guys who do it.

 

[teh-slb]

I am pretty sensitive to tempo variations and wondering if I'm being too obsessive about it. I'm working with a drummer who is a little green and, with his consent, I am trying to coach him in filling in some of the cracks with things he needs to work on. Tempo is a big issue; he's gotten much better at it but will still manage to speed up or drag in certain areas; usually these are sections where his playing will go from simple to busy or vice versa, so I'm trying to make him aware of that tendency, so he can work on it.

He has an app on his phone that will show him his tempo as he's playing, and when he watches it, he manages to stay within what, to me, is a tolerable level of variance. But when he starts going beyond that level, I have to stop him and remind him to pay attention. I might alert him to that when he starts to approach a certain bpm or so above or below where we started, but I'm usually feeling it before then.

I'm not saying what that level is yet, because I don't know if I'm out of bounds for what most people would say is tolerable, and I want your unvarnished views.

Also, if you all agree with me, it could be helpful for me to be able to show him that I'm not being too picky. And if you don't agree, then perhaps I am being too picky, and that would be useful too.

Editing to add, since I'm sure it will come up: He has practiced with a metronome for years and he's gotten very good at keeping in time with a click; this is a problem that he has in playing freestyle without assistance of that sort, so I don't think using a metronome or click at this stage is going to fix this.

It depends. Here's one example of a rather noticeable but tolerable speed-up (have a listen to a few seconds of each):






I wouldn't say that it ruins the performance. It's one of my favorite versions of the tune.

 

[r_bnks]

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

I have played with some wonderful drummers and also with some lousy ones. Very slight changes are not a problem - that's human - the gross changes are the one ones that freak me out. I really never enjoyed a gig with the lousy drummers - it is as bad as band members being out of tune.

 

[LBS-bass]

I'm pretty sensitive to tempo changes as well, I can hear it change as soon as the first hi-hat hit is off tempo. I can tolerate up to about 5 bpm's before I start getting their attention about it.

This is about how I am. I should mention that slow drift over the course of an entire song isn't so egregious to me as long as it doesn't go too far. I've got no major problem if a song goes from 80 to 88 if it takes us three or four minutes to get there, depending on the song of course. A lot of early recorded music drifts like this, slowly over time, and it's imperceptible to most people. But drifting by 4-8 bpm over the course of 8 measures or so is a much bigger problem for me.

I try to pull him back but, as I said, this is a problem of attention for him and when he is drifting he is also not listening, so I have a hard time getting his attention which is why I have to stop him during these sessions.

We have also been working on that, specifically, and he has gotten much better at it. He used to play with recorded music and he'd get wildly off from the reference track before noticing. Now he can do that and pretty much stay with it, as long as his head doesn't drift to what he's going to have for dinner. Focus for him is, at this point, the entirety of most of his remaining issues. And it doesn't happen all night long. He can play beautifully in time. He's not a horrible drummer, just has these little quirks that, I believe, he wouldn't have if he'd been properly instructed from the beginning.

I get it, because I do it too, I suspect we all have moments where we slip out of the zone and find ourselves wondering where we are in the song, etc.

 

[dkelley]

I agree it's annoying - and good for you for working with the drummer on this stuff. I think that, you being the better musician, you need to privately talk with the drummer and explain that it's still happening and is quite obvious, and that it's something lots of people fight with as musicians and the drummer is not alone. The person who hasn't learned yet how to be self observant of their own tempo changes will THINK they ARE self observant and will THINK they are NOT changing tempos, which means they don't go and try to fix it systematically.

I suggest some recording of the songs in question and playback with you and the drummer critical listening to the tempo, and you being the teacher and the drummer being the student. clap along with the tempo and, knowing when it changes (from you being there when the drummer originally shifted gear in the recording), you can emphasize that the drummer is slower or faster than your clapped tempo. Classical/jazz music teacher stuff like that goes a long way to helping the problem.

Then play some classic songs that showcase great professional musicians changing tempo by accident, and get the drummer to start hearing that stuff and being as annoyed by it as I am.

Example tracks:



In the above song, when the chorus starts (Around 51 seconds in), the tempo speeds up for about the first 3 seconds of the chorus and stays that fast, but occasionally slows in the verses when the (world renown) drummer goes back to hitting the hihat. Great drummer, famous tempo issues.



Stones - charlie watts... another legendary drummer - not the most accurate at tempo though. the speed up in this song is just ridiculous.



with Time, above, I'm not talking about the ending, which is obviously intentional. I'm talking about the intro and main song until the ending starts.

The tempo issues between the tick tick percussionist and the drummer might be intentional... I never was sure, like either the drummer thinks that the percussion dude was playing too slowly so sped it up, or the percussion dude is playing to the exact tempo (When he's alone) that they had agreed to, to try and keep the drummer FROM speeding up, or nobody just gave a crap. I'm inclined to think that the percussion dude going tick tock tick tock was just not doing the tempo that the drummer/band wanted to play at. who knows though! It's a classic situation.

 

[SemiDriven]

Tempo creep drives me crazy (and sometimes I’m the instigator!).

It’s helpful to remember that even on recordings of some of my favorite bands from yesterday year, tempo fluctuation was alive and well. So minor tempo creep is somewhat normal.

When I first joined my current band, the drummer drummed the beat he thought was best. Period. For example, if we started out to fast, we all hung on for dear life. The entire band reasoned with him to pay more attention to what the tempo “should” be. I even printed out our song sets indicating the BPM (Beats-Per-Minute). He tried. He really did. But no dice.

Then I stumbled across a nifty BPM (beat-per-minute) app. During rehearsals, I set my tablet where the band could see it, and in real time, we could see the good, the bad, and the ugly facts of tempo creep. It was rather eye-opening to how far off we strayed over the course of certain songs (7-10 BPM off!)

Over time using this BPM tool, the drummer has improved. In fact, we all have improved. Now, when we gig, I park the tablet by the drummer's kick drum where only he can see it. It makes a difference!

 

[TemplesOfSyrinx]

If you find a drummer with solid tempo, groove, swing & soul hold on to them!! They are rare. Meter or tempo wanderers will make the best band sound crappy. I'm always surprised that more drummers don't focus on their relationship with meter & tempo.

 

[Gaolee]

Excellent work!
Just for fun, I’ve been using a metronome app to tap along and find tempos while listening to the classic rock station.
I’ve realized something I didn’t know until I did this experiment: ALL our favorite classics have tempo variations.

The Rolling Stones had huge tempo variations in their songs, especially early on. As long as the groove keeps on, it's not as important. It's when the band doesn't all have the same tempo variation that it's a big problem.